Re: radical departure

Subject: Re: radical departure
From: Taneli Niko Tikka (
Date: Tue Nov 16 1999 - 16:13:09 EET

On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Otso Makinen wrote:

> had to place the initial players near each other or they would never find
> each other (dealing with extremely stupid NPC's just can't replace real
> players). Since we have quite huge land area in our use, we can easily add
> areas while the world is running without players ever noticing
> cities/villages/whatever appearing from nowhere.

Yep, all this is true. And strongly supports the way it should be done. We
dont need to (and its not in our best intrest to do this) to create a full
world in complete detail. It does take forever. But what we can do is to
create generic systems, places, kindoms etc.. here and there.. around the
place. enough to make a working economy, politics and racial relations.
All this is totally dynamic and can evolve into any direction. Then we
release the players and they make what they can with the world. They cant
destroy kindoms in 12 hours, or kill all of one single race. 
> And about developing societies. If we place players in a ready world we must
> make to world quite static or the players will break it. If players are
> allowed to make history they'll crash the initial world in less than a week.

No they wont. there is no fucking way they can do it in a week. In the
world the exist SO MUCH more powerful forces that support the stucture of
the world that cant be overrun by players in a week, month, or not
possibly in a year either. They cannot kill all powerful wizards, all moon
elves, all of high elven kindoms in a week. 

> Most cities build by designers would soon be ruins if we want to make it
> possible to destroy cities. We just can't throw players in and assume
> they'll immediately adjust to the world unless it is forced to them. We are
> talking about real societies here, with real people in them, and such
> societies must develop gradually.

Yes they can destroy cities IF they have the power to do that. If a player
after a week of playing tries to destroy a city, well.. lets see.. there
is about 5000 NPC cityguard that are after him, the local lords hire 100
assassin to kill him, there is a 500 person organization of wizards that
tries to kill him.. etc.. etc.. just go mashing city walls with a
sledgehammer and you will get "some" enemies :)

And gods and sages have got nothing to do with it. its npcs.

> We can't force players to obey rules,

We dont NEED TO.. they can brake any rule they are able to, any rule they
are powerful enough to brake.

> If we have to constantly remind elves that they like living in woods and not
> in caves, telling that that's just the way elves are, we have made a mistake
> somewhere. If we want to have elves living in forests we must make the race
> so that to best place for them to be is in the forest. If the only reason
> for a player to play different races differently is just because they're
> told to so, it will not work.

We dont need to remaind elves of anything. players are a VAST MINORITY of
elves. A few of wood elves are players, maybe adventurers etc.. but there
is thousands of npc elves that live in the forests. Players can live where
ever they want to, in caves or in cities.


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