Meta-Magical Debates

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-21 13:24:58

Hello. There have been a lot of discussions about the magic, how it is going to work, spells and other potential stuff. But I see one aspect has been completely by-passed.

Alarmed of the game known as the D&D, the magic system has gone completely haywire as in the worst case, you have a spell to turn a page in a book you are reading or a spell with which you lift your eyeglasses which slurm on your cheeks once in a while as you read.

Not because of only that, the world is SATURATED of magic. If that world is put any more magic, I think it will blow apart.

Therefore, I saw an important issue to discuss about the general structure of the magic, which I decided prominently to name as 'meta-magic', meta ta majika, 'behind the magic', or simply put, physics of magic in the world of Majik.

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-21 14:35:48
In-Reply-To: 904

How can we put it all together? :)

When it comes down to it, Magic is often the central feature of many of the game episodes - most players couldn't tell you a thing about Joe's paladin, but everyone who was at the game remembers the time Joe's paladin found his HOLY SWORD! An enormous number of players are remembered fondly not for their personalities or the skill how they roleplay at us, but instead of the particular magical items they own and the nifty tricks they have with their spell selections.

While this isn't necessarily bad, it can detract from the role-playing elements of the game. After all, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail. :)

If you gots a flame sword, you'll start seeing that any answers in forthcoming problems are going to involve slashing and burning something.

Similarly, a spellcaster whose most memorable achievement is his invention of 'Sirdar's inescapable decapitation' and subsequent use of this spell in every encounter for the rest of his gaming career isn't really a well-developed character at all. That's a minmaxer. A hero with a magical sword is fine, but when the magical sword DEFINES the hero, the hero is diminished. :P

Another difficulty that arises in many games is the substitution of magic for technology. Imo, that's stupid for a medieval fantasy game. Players of Majik are (quite naturally) creatures of the modern world (some call it RL), and modern conveniences such as cars, tanks, telephones, televisions, computers and any number of other devices seem so indispensable that there just HAVE to be magical equivalents.

While some of this is fine somewhere, it desensitizes the players to the sheer wonder that magic should inspire in most characters. After all, magic should be MAGICAL, full of mystery and terror, but when you, as a player, routinely use your magical toothbrush to brush your teeth and stir your stew, magic becomes nothing more than a tool. Blurring the distinction between magic and technology detracts from the strength of both philosophies.

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-21 14:24:40
In-Reply-To: 904

In fantasy literature, there is often a price to be paid for magical power. Spellcasters may have to make terrible pacts with dark powers for the knowledge they seek, faithful priests may have to sacrifice something dear to them to invoke their deity's favor, or then a spellcaster may pay an immediate price in terms of fatigue, illness, or even a loss of sanity.

Generally, most fantasy games are quite forgiving in this regard - when a player casts a spell, he expends a few unusual components and simply losts some of his 'spell points'. It's easy to increase the cost of magic by strictly enforcing the requirement to procure material components and hiding them in perilous places, for example, a spell which might require a piece of bone from an undead creature. Requiring the spellcaster to personally locate and remove such materials can force the player to make hard decisions about which spells are worth the trouble.

Now, imagine Majik in which magic is far more costly. What if a character risked insanity every time he attempts to cast or learn a new spell? Or if the casting of a spell might render the player unconscious from exhaustion? A player might even have to risk a permanent loss of his abilities / stats each time he casts a spell in a world where magic is exceptionally dangerous.

Again, a few changes like these can make a great impact from a normally routine fantasy genre game.

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-21 14:19:01
In-Reply-To: 904

POWER OF THE MAGIC

What can magic accomplish at maximum? Can spells change history or reverse events that have already occurred? To what degree do the gods and their avatars involve themselves in the world of Majik? Will there be a classification between 'ordinary' and 'true' magic?

The impact of the magic in a game can be greatly lessened by reducing the power of the spells that can work. For example, by limiting spells such as teleports, the meaning of travel on foot becomes a thousand times more important.

Another point lies in the emphasis on the power of characters versus the power of magical items. Should a warrior become a killing machine because he happened to find a weapon such as the Vorpal Sword as we all fantasy geeks know it - or should most of his combat bonuses be derived from skills and training? In earlier incarnations of the fantasy, games leaned strongly towards the first option, but with the advent of latest fantasy games, it is now possible to create a character who doesn't need a powerful magical item to drastically increase his combat power.

The real danger to the game balance lies in combining these two benefits - a weapon master equipped with a powerful magical weapon becomes nearly unstoppable. If Majik will feature a lot of high-powered magic, not putting too many types of weapon masteries in the game should be seriously considered.

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-21 14:09:02
In-Reply-To: 904

Then, can anyone in the game be a wizard or whatever type of a spellcaster, or do these characters have to belong to a select set in order to even BEGIN their studies? Do the common people know enough about magic to distinguish between different types of spells? Is the study of magic a study of easily-defined natural laws, or are the forms of magic deliberately obscured by generations of needless rite and ceremony? More importantly, do the players know the limits of a spellcaster's powers?

In most games, characters "in the know" have an excellent grasp of exactly what each spell available can do. After all, most players are quite familiar with the other games, so there is no doubts about what, for example, a fireball will do. But most common NON-player characters are not as knowledgeable - the typical innkeeper doesn't know that a spellcaster can use invis to walk out without paying his tab, or some other way to cheat him. He just knows that spellcasters can do things that ordinary people can't, and if he's bright innkeeper, he never falls for the same trick twice.

In a less mysterious world, the same innkeeper knows to look out for invisibility, for example, by having a sack of fine grain handy near him to throw some in the air if someone boggles around invisible to see his outlines. And half-a-dozen other dirty tricks. He may even know enough to request a spellcaster to relinquish certain spell components to make sure a particularly obnoxious spell (the same ole' fireball, for instance) won't be available to that spellcaster while he's in the innkeeper's place of business. In this kind of setting, EVERYONE would know that faithful priests can heal injuries, blindness, disease, or possibly bring back a loved one from the dead, and priest characters will be constantly asked to use their powers on someone's behalf.

In a world where the nature of magic is cloaked in superstition and ignorance - an 8 or 9 on the scale - spellcasters will generally inspire fear in anyone who learns of their powers. Note that even the spellcaster himself may not really know why his spells work - imagine a character who begins a very simple spell such as .. MAGIC MISSILE ;) - with a thunderous declaration of the names of forbidden powers, just because he was taught to do it that way. Of course, one of the 'names' is actually the verbal triggering part of the spell, and the rest of the nonsense has no effect on the casting of the spell.

It could be a good approach NOT to put any spell lists available for public, since most of the players, simply put, don't know anything nor should they know about the mystics of MAGIC. This instills a sense of dread and wonder even in the most experienced and jaded players.

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-21 13:53:48
In-Reply-To: 904

Let's say that that the very NATURE of magic in a game can be described by a single scale that rates the scarcity, mystery, power, and cost of magic on a scale of 1 to 10. Obviously, a game with magic that is extremely scarce and weak in power represents a very mundane world when compared to a world where powerful magic is very common.

SCARCITY

How common is magic in the game? Are wizards and priests so rare that even low-level spellcasters are figures of legend, or are they so common that any hamlet or crossroads village has its own resident spellcasters? Most games take a position between these two extremes, but lean TOWARDS the high end of the scale, falling in the 6 to 8 range on the 10-point scale - wizards and priests appear as allies, enemies, sources of information, or even window-dressing in literally every part of the game. At the highest extremes, campaigns feature numerous spellcasters and magical items. Even a small town has several wizards of skill, plus dozens of minor merchants, craftsmen, or innkeepers with a spell or two up their sleeve. Wizards are so common that even the most remarkable mages lose their aura of mystery.

So, what do I mean? In a normal game, it's safe to assume that anywhere the players go, the locals know a nearby wizard, and most people encounter a wizard a couple times a year. Any sizable town has at least one or two resident wizards and spell-using priests, plus a handful of folks with minor magical powers such as herbalists, hedge wizards, and healers. Large towns or small cities may have up to a dozen or so magic-using characters, and great cities could support several dozen without crowding. Almost any non-newbie player owns one or more magical items, even if they're fairly small or expendable, and players frequently own about three to five magical items by the time they become a 'midbie' in the game.

In campaigns where magic is not as common (say, a 2 to 4 on the scale), the spellcasting characters become truly unique and important. A priest who can actually invoke his deity's power in the form of spells may be perceived by the great clerical hierarchy as a saint or great patriarch in the making, or possibly as a dangerous reminder of the true faith in those hierarchies that have become complacent or corrupt. A high-ranking hierarch without spells will certainly watch a newbie spellcasting priest very carefully, especially if the player makes no efforts to hide the "miraculous" effects he creates with very simple spells. In another example, a spellcaster can't help but gather attention, fame, and not a little fear if he publicly displays his skills.

Imo, The many different types of magic majik has, should not be the same thing, and all forms of magic do not have to be present in the game to the same degree. Imagine a world where wizards are viewed as the worst sort of villain and persecuted without remorse for decades. Some type of spells might be exceedingly scarce, while the others can be more common because they are socially acceptable (healing spells, for example) - thus, the presence of each type of magic should be given in the similar scale from 1 to 10.

Similarly, magical items might be more or less common than spellcasters. If no one had ever invented a spell with which to produce magical items, it's reasonable to assume that magical items might be a rarity in even the most magical type of a game. The reverse could be true if there was a lost civilization (pre-cataclysm?) of highly advanced wizards who left behind a great number of artifacts and items. The spellcasters of today might be armed to the teeth with magical items (alas which is the problem/fact in most fantasy MUDs), despite the fact that they are struggling to grasp the basics of spellcasting.

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-21 13:39:02
In-Reply-To: 904

What's a fantasy game without magic?

Sure, the Majik could be played without spellcasters, enchanted monsters, or magical items. Everyone can still role-play brave heroes, confront deadly foes, and attempt great quests or deeds of mythical proportions. In fact, it can be fun and challenging to do so in a nonmagical setting. But the point, as we all know it, that magic, more than any other characteristic, defines the majik. As a FANTASY role-playing game, Majik is anchored in the traditions of fantasy literature, and fantasy literature by definition features some element of magic. Even if the heroes of a fantasy story distrust or dislike magic, it's still there in the background as part of the world they live in.

Generally, most writers of fantasy literature create their own unique systems of magic to explain the supernatural powers their heroes and villains employ. That is what we must do also in more precise manner. That is why this thread exists.

For example, in the lord of the rings, jrr tolkien circumscribes the wizard Gandalf's power by placing restrictions on Gandalf's freedom of action. The great wizard is bound by a code of secrecy and noninterference that prevents him from directly challenging the power of Sauron, and he can only help and advise as the Free Peoples of Middle Earth fight their own battles.

There are very good reasons for limiting and describing the boundaries of magic in Majik as well. Modern 'readers', our players, need to see real challenges and obstacles for the characters in a story, and magic systems that are too open-ended can wreck a story's credibility and sense of suspense. If Gandalf could have just teleported the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom from Frodo's living room, what would have been the point of the trek to Mordor?

Since fantasy role-playing games are flexible models of the fantasy genre, the same considerations are true for them. A fantasy RPG, especially online one, has to set VERY precise set of rules for how magic works and what it can do, and the presentation and workings of the magic system inevitably becomes the game's salient characteristics.

From: yorkaturr
Date: 2002-02-21 14:00:34
In-Reply-To: 906

It is true that Majik, being a fantasy RPG, is inevitably anchored in the fantasy genre that is ridden with massive amounts of cliché in the sense that people expect certain things, but as we are not a commercial game, we don't need to be loyal to those expectations, as all of us quite well know.

Majik has quite a unique system of magic that I think is rather well defined, especially how magic will be learned, and how it is cast, and what types of things must be taken into consideration when doing either one. All of this is rather exhaustively described in the worldbook. Some of the symbols are still missing descriptions, but I will write them once I have time.

The only challenge concerning magic we now face is actually coming up with the effects of our symbol combinations, and this is a subject that indeed takes great care and consideration.

From: Nahl_Shadore
Date: 2002-02-21 22:52:14
In-Reply-To: 907

You've got the basic idea here, weak and primal magic won't be unheard of, but the more powerful magics should be very rare, except among sages, as they require much dedication to your art.

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-22 12:07:07
In-Reply-To: 907

My opinions about this issue:

Access to three magical schools (that is, primal-, sorcery- and academic) is relatively limited. What I mean is that while there certainly is individuals (sorcerers, witches, mages, wizards, druids and the like) who can cast spells, it might be so that they mostly have access to only few spells and complement this with alchemy and other arts. While there are races and people who can use, for example, primal magic, it doesn't mean that they know a huge amount of spell formulas. I see these races having a limited selection of spells and it may be even so, that they have spells from various schools of magic. For example a witch may possess some knowledge in sorcery: she can brew a few potions with true magical effects, some alchemy: she can brew more potions with alchemical mixtures, herbalism: she knows how to use herbs for quickened healing or for poison, primal magic: she knows a few wild dances for controlling weather and ritualistic curses... I'm sure you get the idea. For normal commoners, this all may seems like magic, they don't understand when a potion is enchanted through use of sorcery magic and when it is simply a herbal mixture. Then there might be a few witche which truly know a lot about magic, they extensively search for new spell formulas and the like. This makes so that most "spellcasters" are weak and then there are a few really powerful individuals, as it should be. It is rarity of symbols and their complex combinations which make powerful spells rare but there are spells which can level cities and cause new volcano's raise and stars to fall. Only limit is how much the person(s) can channel magical energy.

Religious magic be quite common since gods are real in the world of majik. Followers are also only way to gain divine points so it looks natural to have gods which grant minor blessings and curses to their followers. As religious magic is strictly fixed in nature, it is easy to give away weak versions of healing spells (or heal the target) to even those members of the common rabble who have sacrificed to the god a lot. Such "blessings" will also be very limited in time so the person in question could cast the spell only one or two times. Truly powerful religious magic and repetitive spellcasting is only in hands of priesthood. It is wise to remember that gods lose divine points when they grant blessings and spells. So if high priest of Yorkaturr casts a spell that slays a village filled with people instantly, you can be pretty damn sure that the high priest has worshipped and sacrificed a lot before it and is not very likely to cast spells even close to that power in a while. This form of magic is the most easy to oversee because of its static nature and needs not to be balanced with rarity factors as previous forms of magic.

Divine magic is obviously the rarest form and most powerful of all. I believe it was the use of divine magic which brought the cataclysm... it is the magic which affects directly to the building blocks of the reality and thus it can even affect to the gods (other than greater). Yet, gods have many tricks which are not available to mortals and they certainly have a lot more power to waste. Word balance should be never used when considering power of this magic as it is the ultimate form of magic in the world.

As to artifacts

I believe most artifacts should be unmovable. They should be likes nodes. For example an ancient monolith that excludes an aura of shielding or a heartstone of some city are examples. There could be even such limits that if the heartstone was removed, the whole city would collapse. I also see scrying pools and other side effects of the nodes as artifacts. (hmm, i have to write about nodes today). if it comes to weapons and movable artifacts, it would be good if they had some penalties too. For example in LOTR elven rings (and all other lesser rings) were tied to the one ring and when it was destroyed, they losed their power.

- Beregar

From: raeky
Date: 2002-02-21 21:15:28
In-Reply-To: 909

> Then, can anyone in the game be a wizard or whatever type of a spellcaster, or do these characters have to belong to a select set in order to even BEGIN their studies?

Don't mean to sound rude here, but have you even read the world book? There are no classes/sects/groups of players any player can learn and do ANYTHING in the game, and it is possible to learn EVERYTHING (though unlikely.)

> ? Do the common people know enough about magic to distinguish between different types of spells?

The common player, and just starting player likely won't even exerience magic or know any of its nature. They have to seek out the knowledge of it and learn it from a master.

I can forsee a possibly breif overview of the world and some of its nature on the website and in the game for players to read. So they are not completely in the dark, but almost eveything and definetly magic will be unknown to players, they have to read and talk and learn what is possible from other players/quests/sages.