Sirdar's Alchemy

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-19 18:30:02

Okay, I have been given the honor to create the alchemy system for Majik. My alchemical system is based on reagents (kalium, nitrogen) found from the nature by some means, which are thenafter mixed from the reagents to a basic alchemical compound (kalium nitrate), and reprocessed from the basic compound into a mixture (kalium nitrate + coal + sulfur = gunpowder). The more distillations that are done to the mixtures, the more potent mixture is acquired. Now, here is the mixing table for you to look at.

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-19 18:39:03
In-Reply-To: 826

The Mixing Table

Alchemical Mixtures have been divided into 11 different volumes

basic compounds
Grade A mixtures
Grade B mixtures
Grade C mixtures
Grade D mixtures
Grade E mixtures
Grade F mixtures
Grade G mixtures
Grade H mixtures
Grade I mixtures
Grade J mixtures (true mixtures)

When mixing these mixtures, the more powerful alchemical brew is always from the distillation of the previous grade.
Mixing can produce the wanted brew, the failed brew or then something in between. God bless. As you can see, the
alchemy is always dangerous. You either get hurt, or then you'll end up having something else on your hands than you wished for.

----

START - FROM REAGENTS INTO A BASIC ALCHEMICAL COMPOUND
1-5:\t\tFatal
6-15: \t\tSomething
16-100:\t\tSuccess, reagents mixed into a basic alchemical compound

FROM BASIC COMPOUND TO GRADE A MIXTURE:
1-10:\t\tFatal
11-20:\t\tSomething
16-100:\t\tSuccess, basic compounds mixed into a Grade A mixture.

FROM GRADE A MIXTURE TO GRADE B MIXTURE:
1-10:\t\tFatal
11-25:\t\tSomething
26-100:\t\tSuccess, Grade A mixture mixed into a Grade B mixture.

FROM GRADE B MIXTURE TO GRADE C MIXTURE:
1-10:\t\tFatal
11-30:\t\tSomething
31-100:\t\tSuccess, Grade B mixture mixed into a Grade C mixture.

------------------------------------------------------------
FROM GRADE C MIXTURE TO GRADE D MIXTURE:

1-5:\t\tFatal
6-15:\t\tSomething

16-25:\t\t[C1]=reroll, \t
1-90: Decomposed into a Grade B mixture.
\t 91-100: Something

26-35:\t\t[C2]=reroll, \t
1-5: [C3]=reroll,
1-50: Found Alternative Use
\t\t 51-100: -> [D3]
\t 6-10: -> [D3]
\t 11-15: Fatal
\t\t16-25: Something
\t\t26-100: -> [D2]

36-100:\t\tSuccess, Grade C mixture mixed into a Grade D mixture.
------------------------------------------------------------
FROM GRADE D MIXTURE TO GRADE E MIXTURE:

1-10:\t\tFatal
11-20:\t\tSomething

21-30:\t\t[D1]=reroll,\t
1-85: Decomposed into a Grade C mixture.
\t 86-100: Something

31-40:\t\t[D2]=reroll,
1-10: [D3]=reroll,
\t\t 1-20: -> Grade A mixture
\t\t 21-55: -> Grade B mixture
\t\t 56-100: -> [E3]
\t\t11-20: -> [E3]
\t\t21-25: Fatal
\t\t26-35: Something
\t 36-100: -> [E2]

41-100:\t\tSuccess, Grade E mixture mixed into a Grade D mixture.

------------------------------------------------------------

FROM GRADE E TO GRADE F MIXTURES:

1-15:\t\tFatal
16-25:\t\tSomething

26-35:\t\t[E1]=reroll,\t
1-80: Decomposed into a Grade C mixture.
\t\t81-100: Something

36-45:\t\t[E2]=reroll,
\t\t1-15: [E3]=reroll,
\t\t 1-60: mixture turned into shit,
~broken.
\t\t 61-100: -> [F3]
\t\t16-25: -> [F3]
\t\t26-35: Fatal
\t\t36-45: Something
\t\t46-100: -> [F2]

46-100:\t\tSuccess, Grade E mixture mixed into a Grade F mixture.

------------------------------------------------------------

FROM GRADE F TO GRADE G MIXTURES:

1-15:\t\tFatal
16-30:\t\tSomething

31-40:\t\t[F1]=reroll,\t
1-75: Decomposed into a Grade E mixture.
\t\t76-100: Something

41-50:\t\t[F2]=reroll,
\t\t1-15: [F3]=reroll,
\t\t 1-25: -> Grade C mixture.
\t\t 26-65: -> Grade D mixture.
\t\t 66-100: -> [G3]
\t\t16-30: -> [G3]
\t\t31-40: Fatal
\t\t41-55: Something
\t\t56-100: -> [G2]

51-100:\t\tSuccess, Grade F mixture mixed into a Grade G mixture.

------------------------------------------------------------

FROM GRADE G TO GRADE H MIXTURES:

1-15: Fatal
16-30: Something

31-45:\t\t[G1]=reroll,\t
1-70: Decomposed into a Grade E mixture.
\t\t71-100: Something

46-60:\t\t[G2]=reroll,\t
\t\t1-20: [G3]=reroll,
\t\t 1-70: USELESS, mixture turned into
junk
\t\t 71-100: -> [H3]
\t\t21-35: -> [H3]
\t\t36-50: Fatal
\t\t51-65: Something
\t\t66-100: -> [H2]

61-100: \tSuccess, Grade G mixture mixed into a Grade H mixture.

------------------------------------------------------------

FROM GRADE H TO GRADE I MIXTURES:

1-20: \t\tFatal
21-40: \t\tSomething

41-55: \t\t[H1]=reroll, \t
1-65: Decomposed into a Grade F mixture.
\t\t66-100: Something

56-65:\t\t[H2]=reroll,\t
\t\t1-30: [H3]=reroll,
\t\t 1-30: -> Grade E mixture.
\t\t 31-75: The whole mixture neutralizes
and decomposes back into basic
alchemical compounds.
\t\t 76-100: -> [I3]
\t\t31-45: -> [I3]
\t\t46-60: Fatal
\t\t61-75: Something
\t\t76-100: -> [I2]

66-100:\t\tSuccess, Grade H mixture mixed into a Grade I mixture.

------------------------------------------------------------

FROM GRADE I MIXTURES TO TRUE (grade J) MIXTURES:

1-20:\t\tFatal
21-50:\t\t[I1]=reroll, \t
1-60: Decomposed into a Grade F mixture.
\t\t61-100: Something

51-80:\t\t[I2]=reroll,\t
\t\t1-30: Fatal
\t\t31-75: [I3]=reroll,
\t\t\t1-80: mixture transmuted into
something VALUABLE
\t\t\t81-100: -> [I2]
\t\t76-100: Something

81-100: \tSuccess, Grade I mixture mixed into a True Mixture.

---

comments?

From: raeky
Date: 2002-02-21 23:47:39
In-Reply-To: 829

I'm not so sure I understand what is being done here...

Alchemy is a crude form of chemistry, and being such you have ingredients (chemicals) that are isoloated from the environment. In mideval times they mostly used mineral salts found naturally and salts from plants. (everything that made a crystal was called a salt.)

First and formost an alchemist needs to learn what in his environment can be useful an then how to isolate them. Like for example the black dirt from under a orange rock in nethir forest contains golgja salt. It is isolated by distillation and evaopration. (the dirt is disolved in water then boiled the steam is condenced and evaporated to form a red salt.)

Haveing different grades of a substance is just to complex. You'll have to define every single combination of the different grades in the different recipes.....

And purification of this dirt will always return the red salt, no matter who does it. No randomness involved and no "fatal" result.

Almost all purification would be safe unless your dealing with exolosive components. (like the white phosphorus i defined in worldbook).

What needs defined is what raw materials contain what, and how to get them out, then in game the player just has to have in his possession the raw material and equipment needed and poof he gets the purified result if he knows the recipe.

Once you have purified ingredients they can be reacted and combined in mixtures to produce other chemicals and effects. These also need defiend... if you mix hoplua salt with water and horse urine you will always get a health potion. Also without Fatal or random results.

Alchemy should be consent, if you know how to do it and have the equipment and ingredients you get the result. Some reactions (those with flamable/posions/exlosive/acids/etc.. can be dangerous, and the beginning alchemist trying them might get hurt or killed. But not everything is dangerous. isolateing the glowing checmial in a firefly isn't going to cause an massive boom that will kill the alchemist.)

The whole proccess of alchemy should be relooked at and all this random/rolling/fatal stuff should be done away with.

Just my two cents. :P

From: Archantes
Date: 2002-02-19 21:54:49
In-Reply-To: 829

FROM BASIC COMPOUND TO GRADE A MIXTURE:
1-10: Fatal
11-20: Something
16-100: Success, basic compounds mixed into a Grade A mixture.

I think that should be:

11-20: Something
21-100: Success, basic compounds mixed into a Grade A mixture.

Just a minor but.. had to double-check.

From: raeky
Date: 2002-02-22 01:00:03
In-Reply-To: 829

This whole "reroll" "random" stuff has to much MUD roots. Get away from that... alchemy is based on earth consents, the energy contained in the earth and minerals that was left there by the gods when it was created.

The earth and its energy is consent and should yeid constent results if done with proper procedures.

There are only a few procedures that one needs to know to isolate or react any chemical. and once those are mastered (on harmless components) an alchemst can begin to do potentally harmfull experiments/reactions. And since he knows how to do the proceedures (practices for a very long time with harmless mixtures) he will always ALWAYS get a correct result

And if you get an incorrect result it will be either explosive or just produce junk materials and consume your ingridents, forceing you to start over.

There shouldn't be randomnes or even 11 different grades of materials. I want LARGE amounts of raw materials and even more elements that can be isolated from. And if you had 10 different or 11 different grades each can be in you'll have a nightmare trying to define all the reactions possible.

at MOST two different grades, and i don't even like that idea, impure and pure grades, impure from inproper isolation or first step of isolation, and processes is repeated to form a pure substance that is used in reactions, if impure is used you could have bad results, if pure the chance of a bad result is very minium.

I don't want to see some player blowing up for trying to isolate red die from a flower or a salt from some dirt or plant. Thats just crazy.. In fact I don't want to see really any bad results from isolation/purification because what you yeild isn't very usefull untill you combine it with something and react it. The reactions/combinations of pure/impure substances that you isolated is where you could have bad results, and make them logical, if your mixing aquaous substances (disolved in water) its not going to explode (with fire, mabye alot of gass is produced and if in a sealed container it will rupture) be senseable with your bad results.

I want to see first defined the raw materials that things can be isolated then what can be isolated and how to do it. (the recipes players learn).

Then go about defining all the equipment, being general because each race/region that developed alchemy would have logicaly different looks and ingrdeints/mixtures.

Then define all the mixtures/reactions that are possible with your substances you've already desinged.

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-19 18:54:51
In-Reply-To: 829

Yes, this is very good and what is even better, it can be easily applied to both materials from the real world and to "home made" materials.

I especially like that there is a healthy risk of blowing things up. Alchemy should be dangerous as it will certainly be very beneficial too. I would like to know what have you planned for fatal results? Not all of them can be lethal or otherwise alchemists end up killing themselves which is a bad thing when comparing to other, relatively safe professions.

Perhaps you could also provide us with a table for fatal errors? I believe the list for random transmutations can't be defined yet as we don't have that many materials.

- Beregar

From: darshan
Date: 2002-02-19 18:46:00
In-Reply-To: 829

After what you insinuated in another thread, I was worried you would come up with a horrible mess of real-world alchemical snippets, but I'm glad I was wrong. That gradation system is a very attractive idea and could make for a very good alchemical base.

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-19 19:47:25
In-Reply-To: 832

Now, the next quesion would be about the reagents. There is always the periodical table of elements from where to find them, or then you might already have them somewhere as herbs and stuff. Of course, imho the best solution would be a mixture of this, as in sulphur and other common elements which were known in the medieval age, but leaving out the weirder and newer ones such as helium & xenon, for example. Post me all the stuff that has been already created and you wish to be included into the alchemical system on this board in reasonable time, so I'll put them in my mad schemings. :)

From: raeky
Date: 2002-02-21 23:34:10
In-Reply-To: 837

I belive it has been decided that Alchemy will deal with earth ingredeents not herbs/plants/animals

Witchcraft will use herbs/plants/animals

While possibly an Alchemist may isolate and purify a chemical found in a plant they don't use the litteral plant in a "recipe"

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-19 20:07:57
In-Reply-To: 837

Material list is currently quite scarce. I suppose you could implement yourself a few materials too. I believe the alchemy system should be ever evolving anyway, but I understand you want make few combinations right away. You might want to contact the natural resources section of the worldbook (which really should be material resources as it doesn't include plants).

- Beregar

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-22 11:27:25
In-Reply-To: 921

i don't see why? herbs, plans and animals should be possible components.

Also, withcraft is sorcery, so it is a form of spellcasting. Witches enchant and brew potions through use of material components which can be as well sulfur or rock as it can be a plant.

- Beregar

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-22 11:32:06
In-Reply-To: 923

This whole "reroll" "random" stuff has to much MUD roots. Get away from that... alchemy is based on earth consents, the energy contained in the earth and minerals that was left there by the gods when it was created.

I believe this falls under sorcery and more precisly: withcraft. Though it is just my opinion.

- Beregar

From: yorkaturr
Date: 2002-02-22 11:39:38
In-Reply-To: 925

Witchcraft != Sorcery goddamnit.

From: raeky
Date: 2002-02-22 18:18:41
In-Reply-To: 925

I don't know we came to this conclusion in the channel. The whole topic of alchemy has been discussed alot there

From: raeky
Date: 2002-02-22 18:25:10
In-Reply-To: 926

I think your idea of what sorcery and witchcraft is that they are very closely the same. They are not. Witchcraft is casting spells and making brews and ointments/potions from plants and animals and other "magical" things. Its a form of magic.

Alchemy is a science or proto-science if you will, that deals with channeling and controlling the internal power in the earth that was left there by the gods. They do this mostly with EARTH ingredients.

The whole idea of rolling and randomness and almost everything being lethal is just plain silly. Alchemy if you would want to call it magic, is the most CONSTENT of all in the game. Its because the forces contained in the earth are always consent, and never changing. Only danger is when you use harmful ingredients that have a possibility to explode. Don't turn alchemy or even yet the magic system into a classical MUD.

From: yorkaturr
Date: 2002-02-22 11:42:51
In-Reply-To: 927

Just to put it more clearly, now that my brief flash of indescribable anger has passed due to problems that have nothing to do with this thread, witchcraft is just like alchemy, the basic idea is the same. Only, witches make different kinds of things and use different kinds of components than alchemists. Witches make potions, ointments, lotions etc.

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-22 12:43:12
In-Reply-To: 928

Heh, well, my mistake. I was trying elaborate the fact (which is also mentioned in the magic system) that witches can both brew magical potions and create alchemical ointments, potions etc. Actually, I believe that witchcraft is defined by combining these two.

Archetypal image of a witch is an old crone whose house is filled with herbs, mushrooms and other strange plants and items. Most of their power comes from (alchemical) potion brewing but they can also create magical mixtures in their cauldrons: a type of magical enchanting so it is sorcery. However, i don't know how much about this applies to Majik setting.

- Beregar

From: raeky
Date: 2002-02-22 18:20:38
In-Reply-To: 930

There has to be a difference between the two and on irc we decided that

Alchemy is with earth materials and things isoloated from plants.

Witchcraft is useing plants and animals as ingredietns for there brews, but not specificly earth ingredients.

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-22 19:42:02
In-Reply-To: 937

No, that was not my point. Brewing of magical potions is sorcery, see the magic system. Magical potion brewing, sorcery spells and primal spells are only part of withcraft. As name indicates, witchcraft is the art of witches, simply something that witches do, it is their practice of "magic" even if it is not purely magic as I said above.

Also, witches non-magical potion brewing is similar to alchemy and they should use same base system. They should also use components from both worlds. "Withcraft" should include skills like brew potion, mix ointment and alchemy should have skills like mix substances (only examples, so don't get yourself stuck in them). There shouldn't be any in game division between the two: a witch can learn alchemy by learning mix substance skill and "witchcraft" by learning to brew potions. Also, I don't see why alchemists couldn't use animal bones or tree bark in their alchemical mixtures or a witch could not use quicksilver or mercury in her potions. For the least, they should be material combonents for sorcery spells.

Alchemy if you would want to call it magic...

Again you misunderstood, I didn't say that alchemy is magic, it is not defined as a form of magic in the magic system. I precisly want it NOT to be a form of magic because then we would have to limit it severely. What I said, however, is that for commoners, that is, common people in majik: peasants, farmers and the like, it looks like magic. They don't make distinctions between different schools of magic, hell, they don't even know that there are different schools of magic and they don't make disctinctions between alchemy, witchcraft and magic.

The whole idea of rolling and randomness...

There is always random factor in creation of something. Be it a creation of arms and armor, items, houses, everything. You can't avoid such randomness in the real world either. Sometimes you have a good day: things run smoothly, you add just right amount of combonents in the mixture but sometimes you have a bad day: you accidently add too much something and too little something else and screw the things up. The better the alchemist, the less this happens.

and almost everything being lethal is just plain silly.

Also, I don't understand from where you got the idea about things being lethal. As you can see from Sirdar's alchemy desc, it precisly says "Fatal", not lethal. Fatal as in fatal error: you screw up so badly, accidently slip too much something and get nothing from the combination. Right amounts in mixtures are very important, after all. While you seem to be concerned about MUD approach, your suggestion, where alchemist's hand never slips and always adds correct amount of substance certainly looks like one for me.

- Beregar

From: raeky
Date: 2002-02-22 19:59:21
In-Reply-To: 939

yes.. but errors in there work would be from lack of skill. like missidentifiation of some raw materail, or wrong step in isolation and getting the wrong compound out of raw material, or lack of skill in the proccesses while useing volitile ingredients.

But if you are knowledgeable in the area, your mistakes would be VERY far and few between. And in Sirdar's desc there is truely random results, and I don't like that neccessarly... one raw material might just have one compound in it that can be isoloated in the proccesses yoru doing, so either you manage to get that isolation or you fail and ruin your raw material.

If the raw material is some plant that has 10 differnet compounds that can be isolated and you mix up a step you can get the wrong compound and might get a posion instead and use that in your health potion and die if you drank it.

I can accept some degree of randomness but the randomness needs to be knowledge based, the more knowledge/experience you have in the proccess the less likely of a slip up. Possibly a master at alchemy would have like 0.1% chance of failing in his isolation.

Isolation/purification of raw harmless materials = no harmfull effects if something goes wrong. just you don't get any product or isolate the wrong one and ruin your ingredeints/raw materiaals

Isolation of volitle checmials, can be problematic and should only be for experienced persons.

Reacting/mixing harmless substances wouldn't have a bad result, aside from ruining your ingreidents.

Reacting/mixing volitle chemcials can be harmful and should only be done by experienced alchemists.

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-22 21:04:05
In-Reply-To: 941

Okay, I asked from Yorka what should be final definition for the term "withcraft" (or actually if it has anything to do with magic). From now on the term "witchcraft" refers to non-magical creation of herbal ointments, potions, salves and the like. It has nothing to do with magic, not sorcery or anything else.

- Beregar