Balancing Gods' Influence Over Mortals

From: yorkaturr
Date: 2002-02-18 17:59:28

I had a brief discussion with Mandor today, and we came up with a scheme, that I will describe in this document, that will yield a clearer picture of how the gods influence mortals on a more abstract, collective level. Meanwhile, remain alert for possible notifications about the arising need for more practical descriptions concerning the gods individually.

As the evil gods seem rather powerful in a setting where sword clashes against shield once in a heart beat somewhere in the world, it is necessary to point out the urges that cause this. Since Majik is not an evolutional wonder where inate, yet hidden biological urges drive groups of sentient beings to each others' throats, the only other choice is gods' will.

Each mortal is first pure and good, blessed with the wondrous gift of birth by Aluna and Dazzt, but the forces of darkness, those led by Lord Sinister, may he be shunned by those who walk in light, ominously seek to tip the scale. Mandor, the Shadow-Son, makes it so that each mortal is, to some extent, chronically famished with a hunger for power and respect. Some resist this, those that give in to the temptations of the dark side become selfish, arrogant, vague and subtle.

Those beastly things who carry out their goal for power, viewed as fornicators by the powers of light and healing, take advantage of others to improve their own positions. The reward is a crooked feeling of righteousness and superiority, and material gain; a dark little stinging fist to the already bruised face of Aluna, but a source of joy for Mandor.

But the light-filled gods understand. They, instead, reward mortals with pleasant connections to other mortals, and a peaceful life. Groups are strong. Those that are part of a group are strong, and this is the nature of the strength of good. Only those who help the innocent, only those who give of their own to others, only those who heal the injured have a place among the light-filled halls of Aluna, where eternal serenity, peace and warmth fill the beautiful hearts and bodies of the little angels who once were men. And may it be known to all, that while Aluna is great in her sense of compassion, she too is vain and subtle, and it takes effort and allegiance to appear on her good side.

Those, who do not consider this world to be worthy of their influence, and do not give of their own, and do not follow the paths set before them so clearly, and are desolate and will not bow their heads for no-one, become the lost ones. Those, who are deafened by the loud calls of the halls of the dead find their strength in Yorkaturr. Some, in their madness, come to this situation willingly, some come to this situation after they fall from grace or power, some live in shame, some in hate or blasphemy, many in vengeful indifference. All of these, it is true, are welcome to the unholy hordes; and all of these despise the living. What a convenient ending it is for the life of one, who so hates, to slay, and rend, and ravage in mindless hatred; and what little difference it makes to be but a pulsating heap of flesh...

Then there are those who fall between. Those, who are not given the gift of power, or those who do not think they are worthy. Those, who are so detached from the struggle between the gods, eventhough it is certainly visible to them, that only Namhas cares for them. It is so with scholars, who know but do not meddle, magicians, who meddle but do not know, warriors, who meddle but do not care, and all the meaningless little toilers, who do not meddle and do not know, but might care. Some might call these people ignorant, others call them wise and neutral. It is, in this case, from the point of view of the rivalling gods, a twisted competition where the gods seem to appeal to the mortals. The light-filled ones give them the choice of being helpful to their fellows, and the dark ones set out with much more concrete lures. But, in many cases where a mortal of this kind is involved, nothing is gained.

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-19 00:46:33
In-Reply-To: 777

One point I would put a little emphasis on is: that in this scenario all mortals are more prone to good than to evil. They tend to lean or drift towards the good things; happines, love, joy, kindness etc more than they yearn after evil deeds and chaos.

This results in a bigger part of mortals falling into the "good side of the balance" - evil will always have to recruit them out of there. Lure them to a situation where they give in to temptation, where they betray their hearts and make mistakes etc. Anger, revenge, bitterness, even broken hearts can lure mortals deeper into realms of evil.

Namhas has a function of maintaining the balance, in this scenario the balance is maintained with aluna, dazzt, and the majority of mortals being in the other side of the balance.. and sinister, mandor, yorkaturr, and minority of mortals being on the other.

All other beings, ancients, immortals, new gods, lesser gods. Meddle somewhere in between or even in both sides. As there should be no aligment anchors here many gods can even be drifters. We might even see a scenario where 3 gods all try to offer the fishermen a bountiful feast from the sea to win over their worship and popularity ;-)

We could also see gods who drift from one interest to another. Or even gods who have simply called its quits. Who have retired, and no longer seek an active role in the dynamics of the universe.

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-19 09:57:57
In-Reply-To: 793

> Hello, my name is xxx and I'm a newbie God.

This kind of bs makes me see red. The things should never go so low that this kind of stupid things are emanated from our gods. There is not only responsibility concerning the Sages, but ones that concern the Gods as well.

If I were a casual player, My roleplaying career would be cut short if there was someone greater than me that succeeds in crushing that spirit with a one stupid remark.
Sure, humour is good but should be left manifested in OOC manner unless it is appropriate for the game.

That leads to frustration and retirement from my part, for I believe towards what Majik is aiming to, and hated to see the atmosphere corrupting by someone not taking his trusted job seriously.

I can assure you, I'm in for Majik seriously, and free and willing to absorb 'stale characters' under my tender care and role-playing skills.

Gods are supposed to be dim, omnipotent beings that DO NOT INTERFERE with the mortals, and do not create friends consciously, nor use the mortal channels for blabbering.

I'd prefer to see an Avatar or some other god-controlled NPC for that.

Of course, this has already been discussed, but imho it doesn't hurt to remind of it again (and again.) I suppose the Greater Gods know this well enough, but I doubt you smaller gods - OR SOME OF THE SAGES - do not.

Of the evolutionary solution, I'd suggest a somekind of agreement between the god-driven instincts and the evolution should be made. But that's only my pseudo-realistic-willing point of view.

- Sirdar and his 0.02 euros

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-19 15:19:09
In-Reply-To: 804

Hmm.. where exactly is all this babbling coming from? I could only come up with two alternatives: a) either someones doesn't apparently know how to read, or b) there is some bigger misunderstanding waving its influence in the background. Probably the latter.

Continous, direct interference with the mortals has never been proposed as far as I know. The slogan "God works in mysterious ways" applies here. Be it avatars, small miracles, making sure that a storm washes over the country at precisely the right time, etc.

What ever the case, these are few of the facts the universe functions around: there exists overall balance in the long run, the gods as a whole do influence the life of the mortals quite a bit, the mortals have bacome the pinnacle around which the game of balance is played. This only becomes increasingly important if the only source of divine power of the gods is the mortals, the amount of worship etc.

In any case mortals are quite aware of the gods, their personality etc. More importantly gods should be very aware of each other: they have been living eons together, plotting, fighting, etc. This calls for the more practical descs on all gods. We needs things like personality traits, quirks even. Areas of influence and interest. Also some innate description of the followers that god has. And a desc of the other powers the gods might command and wield (like Warc and Ghadar are probably functioning as a duo most of the time, so are sinister, yorkaturr and the nine unholy hands. Gods should describe their influence, avatars etc in a bit more detail.

Besides powers and components of the universal balanace, gods are also individuals and personalities. Some of them are less static than others, loosing interests, gaining new ones, moving from one area of influence to another, abandoning old followers and attracting new ones. Each god should have goals, or some other equally important functions. I don't see how a god of rivers for example could just happily hopple around his river-domain without any goals or cause. The conflict of balance should be such in nature that if a god performs badly, not only his followers start to abandon him, but he is also in a serious danger to loose his influence and power to other gods perhaps already interested in the same area. If power flows from worship and followers: then it's almost a question of who the mortals credit as their benefactor - who's the god who supports their goals, needs and offers significant value to them in meeting their objectives.

This kind of scenario makes some gods, like Dazzt and Aluna forexample, quite powerful and popular indeed. A summarized point: I severely dislike the idea of having vauge, distant gods with no personality, floating far away in some void without cause, function, objectives and goals, and only occasionally interacting with the world in an avatar for nobody recognizes. Just read the description on the beginning of the "pantheon" section in the worldbook.

.M

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-20 12:27:50
In-Reply-To: 811

>
> a) either someones doesn't apparently know how to read,
>

I do know how to read - I learned it when I was three.

..Though I had to guess a few times which button would lead me into this mysterious 'writing mode' as they call it.

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-19 17:37:04
In-Reply-To: 811

I agree with Mandor, gods should have a great influence over mortals though as Sirdar said, it is very poor roleplaying for a god to hop around and discuss with mortals for other than roleplaying purpose. I believe gods will "talk" mostly with sages, church leaders and others gods only. Though I believe some will advise even lesser priests in their church, after all, what is a god without believers?

Gods can also manifest in the mortal world and I believe that some lesser deities may manifest quite often. For example if there ever will be goddess of fertility and lust, she is sure to partake grand fests (orgies) and why not? It is her domain and her church, after all. Though I suppose it is pretty much dependant on influence of the gods. Also, sages are not gods, they are guides for mortals and weave quests. I think it is completelly acceptable to have a sage leading a church or a city. That way he or she can take an active role as stortyteller: a role similar to that of a DM. For me, Majik's world is an empty storybook and my task (and task of other designers, gods and players) is to fill that book and weave the story.

My only concern currently is that the good gods may soon lose all worship (if any) because there aren't actually any players behind the good gods: Aluna is gone so it leaves Dazzt only active good god. Besides, dark side is always more alluring, many want to play something that is complete opposite to their real selves: evil characters. I see Yorka, Mandor and Harum getting a lot attention on behalf of players, even more as the evil twins will be probably the most active gods in the game.

- Beregar

From: yorkaturr
Date: 2002-02-19 17:40:02
In-Reply-To: 812

This means that since Origon is now God, he should be a goodie-goodie. Darshan, I believe, is rather neutral.

From: gxest
Date: 2002-02-19 17:42:42
In-Reply-To: 812

If it begins to look like the evil gods have too much followers, give and take a few boons/banes according to religious belief, and it will even up the score.

To be more exact: Good gods could be more willing to grant favours and answer to prayers.

From: origon
Date: 2002-02-19 17:44:31
In-Reply-To: 814

Origon god of fertility. How does that fit?

From: Archantes
Date: 2002-02-19 21:38:51
In-Reply-To: 816

If the evil gods will have too much power, maybe it can be balanced like this:

'Evil' or 'dark' (..whatever you like:) gods need more from their worshippers. If a player have to sacrifice stuff, slash himself or cut a finger or two for his deity - and lose some deftness and health at the same time - instead of just giving some money to poor in name of god and two/three time pray per day - I think there will be more players that play and worship for 'not so evil' gods..

And what if there is chance to get insane when you pray or sacrifice for dark gods too much..

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-19 17:49:20
In-Reply-To: 816

Why? What prevents evil gods from granting favours? I believe it is pretty much tied to contexts of a god. I don't see Yorkaturr giving favors easily but on the other hand, Mandor will probably give them a lot! It is part of his role as a father of lies.

No, there has to be some other way to make things even, not some artificial rule implementation.

- Beregar

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-19 17:52:07
In-Reply-To: 817

Hmm, fertility has a lot doing with childbirth. Do you want to be a female god? Though I suppose it is a cliche that fertility gods tend to be female. There is a goddess of fertility and lust in the pantheon already but no-one is currently playing her so if you end up with a better god or goddess, feel free to do so. :)

However, please leave the goddess of beauty to Kathryl. She is also creating a description for the unicorn sage which is part of my Nemen quests (quest to revive the goddess by renewing faith to her).

- Beregar

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-19 23:53:33
In-Reply-To: 817

..from the top of my head without any indepth thinking:

Things that you could be "god of" :

the elements: water, air, fire, earth
actions: creation, control, transformation, destruction
other things: animals, illusions, images, magical power, the body, plants
more other things: trade, commerce, god of money even, god of the drunks ;), songs, poetry, stories, joy, happiness, desire, clarity, awareness, wisdom and experience, fate, justice..

Hmm some of those already belong to a domain of some gods.

I think the trouble is that the domain of influence of any god has to be quite was. Like with shinael being the god of nature: that already covers all the elements and god knows what else. Shinael is actually impressively powerful if he encompasses all of nature. Darshan is also quite impressive if he again is all of intelligence, wisdom, memory etc. These are vast domains. Namhas naturally has quite a huge piece of the pie aswell: controlling destiny, justice and the balance. That a whole lot.

So, would fertility alone be enough? hmm.. Who is seen as the creator of life in majik? when a new mortal is born who blows the breath of life? is it aluna? or would it be this god of fertility then? if so then this is also a very impressive post, being the creator of new mortal life is a far reaching domain..

any thoughts?

.M

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-19 19:36:55
In-Reply-To: 819

making things entirely even all the time is outright impossible.

I agree with the general topic of discussion: one would suspect that the majority of players will want to try out "nasty ways" and live their character lives to the max. I see very little players playing their characters as pure blooded goodies, helping others, devoting their time to others etc.

One of the arugments here could be that: there are other mortals in the world besides those characters that are being played. If majority of them follows the righteous ways then the balance is maintained. Few bad eggs (characters who are being played) won't shift the balance of power.

Another thought: this whole concept of power based on good/evil somehow sucks.. it ties the whole thing much more to alignments once again. There is no good or evil, only grey area, they are semantic and completely subjective. What is the balance then based on? One of the alternatives instead of good/evil might just be relations of power between the gods. Aluna & Dazzt simply have to be == in power with Sinister, Mandor, Yorkaturr.. or something like that?

.M

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-19 22:08:46
In-Reply-To: 842

I see one problem with this: the popular belief in the christian faith, for example, is that it is easier to travel the evil paths than the good paths. It's easier to give in to temptation than to be righteous and do good.

One question: do we still have divine points?

and are they still ment to come from mortal worshippers and then flow upwards to the structure of the gods?

is so, then balance is mainteined by simply deciding which god gets which slice of the overall pie. This could be one solution hmm hmm.

Balance is very problematic. It would definitely be easier if we decide to do the same with gods as we do with mortals: there is no good or evil, and no specific way you are supposed to play.

.. in any case I still think we should not judge this from the perspective of the player characters only: there are other mortals than them in the world, and majority of them are the kind of "good people" who automatically grant worship/power/etc to the good gods. this maintains the balance imo.

.M

From: Archantes
Date: 2002-02-20 00:35:50
In-Reply-To: 844

Yes, it may be so, but who says that god gets power when you are selfish and unkind (even if it is the easiest way)? It doesn't have to be that. It may well be that 'evil' ones gain power only when worshipped truly and 'hard'..

I hope we still have divine points.. is there a replacement for them or what? This proposal of mine was based to the fact that more the god gets worshippers and sacrifices more powerful he is.

It would definitely be easier if we decide to do the same with gods as we do with mortals: there is no good or evil, and no specific way you are supposed to play.

But how we arrange this? If there is god of death and god of war, and they are worshipped by giving healing in their names.. and they still get divine points.. hmm - that sounds odd to me..

There doesn't have to be any l/n/c system to balance this. Gods simply want something from their belows and (in game mechanic terms) tick a box what they want. Like: Pray for me, kill in my name etc. etc. and they can choose only limeted amount of them and excluding opposed options like heal in my name and kill in my name. Then the gods apprise their will by prophets or sacret texts.

And I believe that gods mainly wish from their worshippers something that is characteristic for them. Like the god of war choosing killing etc. Obviously the gods can change their relation to world and suddenly wish something different. Fine, just tick some other boxes and tell the mortals what you wish.

So, there is not actually the good/neutral/evil system but the majik universe is balanced so that god have to know his will and mortals have to join it in order to give power to god. And still there is limitation for opposite choises, which can be explained with something like: If appears different wishes and their deep will, strenghten within gods own will, is different, there can be no will power gained from that wish or act.

Thus gods and mortals live in symbiosis of some kind then.

This whole thing is based on the divine point system, so if there is no such thing anymore.. oh well.. we need something else.

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-20 13:31:49
In-Reply-To: 846

Actually, since divine points flow from lesser gods to gods and again from gods to greater gods all way up to Namhas, I believe it would be wise to have some sort of list of domains and what these domains encompass. For example nature -> weather -> elements of air, water and fire etc.

While that was (admittedly) a poor example, I suppose it reveals the idea. That way we know who is whose subordinate and to whom such god must "give" part of his/her divine points. IMHO it is not neccessary for these gods to be in good terms with eachother, actually, I believe that for many lesser gods only guarantee for safety is because of the god above them gets share of his/her divine points. It is much more easier for a god to have "loyal" subordinates who make their best to ensure continuation of their religion (and thus provide divine points) than to oversee a huge religion which may easily break apart as people are prone to worship other gods too.

- Beregar

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-20 07:17:11
In-Reply-To: 846

Had an idea, tell me what you think :

Since humanity is the creation of the new gods, a new god should be the "life giver" whom they credit for the miracle of birth.

If Yorkaturr is death, the life taker. Could Origon then be the life giver?

Dazzt is the life healer, repairer and purifier - where Mandor is the life damager, poluter and corruptor.

This would create a very nice dynamic between 4 gods :

Origon creates/gives life, dazzt heals and purifies it - Mandor corrupts and damages is, Yorkaturr takes life away.

Would Origon then be the god who gives life to elder species created by the elder gods aswell? (I mean other than humans?, like moon elves for example) - perhaps that god should be someone different, maybe Aluna then.

How does this sound? Origon the god of ferility and life, for the human race?

.M

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-20 13:57:48
In-Reply-To: 847

I think it is a huge mistake to simplify gods, surely a god of death can heal, gods can do anything, after all - especially greater gods. But since healing is against yorkaturr's nature, he will do so only if it benefits him greatly. For yorka it would be easier to let the subject die and return it back to the world as an undead. So it is more likely that he will even quicken demise of the mortal servant who is severely wounded or crippled. After all, a servant that can't do his bidding is (or may be) useless to him.

Maybe we should clear up alignment theme a bit: there are no alignments visible to mortals (players), mortals will define whether the god in question is a good one or an evil one. Domains and divine points are the only things which restrict gods even a bit. Obviously healing miracles should cost more for the god of death and death dealing miracles for the god of life. Besides, I believe our gods are in capable hands and that people behind them will roleplay well.

- Beregar

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-20 15:39:21
In-Reply-To: 861

Here is a suggestion about the structure "who's under who" and how divine points flow from down to upwards.

There are levels: 1 - being namhas, 2 - being the greater gods, 3 - being the major powers (elder gods or powerful new gods), 4 - being the minor powers, and 5 - being weak lesser gods or demigods.

* == elder god

The percentage after a gods name, like for example: (50%) suggests that 50% of this god's divine points flow through this channel. Right now I didn't use much imagination inventing this list up - I just balanced all neutral gods like Shinael and Darshan to be 50/50 on both sides of the balance. This could be a rather good model to work on, or then we need to decide something else. But I rather like the idea of a god being able to "flow divine points" to more than one receiver/upper god.

Here's the list :

1. Namhas*
2. Aluna*
3. Dazzt*
4. Godess of feminity and beauty(50%)
3. Harum(50%)*
4. God of masculinity and strength(50%)
3. Origon
3. Shinael(50%)
4. Darshan(50%)
4. Shanta(50%) (the sand godess)
4. God of oceans(50%)
5. Godess of rivers(50%)
4. Warc(50%)
5. Ghadar(50%)

2. Sinister*
3. Mandor*
4. Hadarah (god of murdered souls)
4. Godess of feminity and beauty(50%)
3. Yorkaturr*
3. Harum(50%)*
4. God of masculinity and strength(50%)
3. Protector de nocte
3. Shinael(50%)
4. Darshan(50%)
4. Shanta(50%) (the sand godess)
4. God of oceans(50%)
5. Godess of rivers(50%)
4. Warc(50%)
5. Ghadar(50%)

Few points that need clarification: the reason why I labeled the godess of feminity and beauty and the god of masculinity and strength to be neutral, is that to my opinion both females and males, feminine and masculine are equally capable of good and evil - this is the reason why I made them neutral (50/50 split between the balance) - I placed the god of masculinity and strenght only under Harum, and that would seem approriate. God of war and masculinity/strength do go very well together. Females then are a completely different thing. I placed the female godess 50% under dazzt; because females are capable of healing, inspiring love etc. And I placed her 50% under Mandor because females are also deceitful, they lie, brake hearts and can be very cruel bitches.. =)

What do you think? would this kind of list serve it's purpose?

One thing apparent from that list: we still need more powers/gods in the world. Now there are gods like Yorkaturr who have nobody underneath. Shinael on the other hand has tons of gods under him, because nature is such a powerful all-encompassing thing.

Btw. should Warc (dreams) be under Darshan (mind), would that make sense? And is Darshan under Shinael (nature) or should Darshan be by the side of Shinael, which would make him a major power??

Well, yeah.. this list needs serious improvements =) but atleast we can get the conversation going. Share your thoughts.

.M

From: Archantes
Date: 2002-02-20 16:29:09
In-Reply-To: 862

I think it is a huge mistake to simplify gods

Did I do that?

surely a god of death can heal, gods can do anything

Yes thay can, of cource they do. The main point however was that the gods get power based on what they wish from mortals. The problem was balancing: If people have to choose between god of death and god of life - most of them will choose death. (To get powers for killing etc.) This causes imbalance. Therefore it may be better that choises that god of death usually makes (like kill in my name) to demand from mortals should cost more. Something like this: If a god (anyone) chooses that he wants mortals to kill in his name, the killing itself wouldn't be enough. You have to cut the victim into pieces and carry to temple and sacrifice it. OTOH if a god (anyone, even god of death if he wishes) chooses to demand 'giving coins to poor' in his name, it would provide as much power for god as the sacrifice (which needs a lot more time to complete).

So actually there is no separation for evil and good god. Only thing that matters is what they want from their belows not the alignment, no, no.. just the wish and will of the god - and was that what you wanted?

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-20 16:55:53
In-Reply-To: 866

One trick is a different point of view of the evil gods. Instead of a clear 'class dividement' between who worships what, think of a god who is so evil that he doesn't practically give a flying fu*k about the people who worship him. He is omnipotent and eternal.

'A power, and entity from terrifyingly remote reaches of space and time - to whom, magical power is nothing more than the triumph of the mind over the rude boundaries of dimension and distance. With knowledge and strength of will, the eons that lie between the stars themselves can be conquered'

'Unspeakable things from the endless black gulfs of space whispering terrifying secrets to the poor souls who dares to try communicating with them.'

'Each spell, formula, or enchantment represents a hidden TRUTH in the structure of universe, a secret man was not meant to know, and still they plunge without fear into the abysses of chaos and entropy surrounding the god seeking for knowledge that would blast a weaker man.'

'He is an entity of cosmic evil older than time itself and thankfully ignorant (or uncaring) of the very existence of the mankind.'

'Intellectuals desire more and more knowledge, the chance to plumb the reaches of space and time with the power of their minds - all too often, these humans blunder into this being's dimension or into the being itself that is so inimical to human thought or perception that they return as raving lunatics.'

- So, instead of worshipping an evil god, his name could also be uttered as a curse, of fear, not of worship. But that's only an aspect. You may apply none of it, some of it or all of it. All the same to me - no need to reply and tell that the idea sucks. :)

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-20 17:21:58
In-Reply-To: 866

Actually, we should look gods a bit more carefully. I recall gods of oceans and rivers and the like were examples which I used in somewhere.

Shanta and Hadarah (the god of murdered souls) are both imprisoned gods, though the bonds holding them in the Desert of Brahjian weakened greatly in cataclysm and small worship could easily free them. I have made a lot plans for lesser deity worship, the only problem is that I don't have anyone to play them. I'm more focused in establishing worship of the lesser deities first because it automagically allows divine points to "flow" upwards benefitting the more powerful gods.

Most gods which I've created have served some purpose in my historical descs or future plans. Shanta, Hadarah, Ghadar and goddess of beauty (currently unnamed) are all such gods. I hope others will do this too. A word of warning though: not all gods will have a player playing them since we should be very careful to choose people as gods. I'd suggest we allow people who have played their sage roles well to become gods after sages become less useful and choose new people to play them (that is, if the sages want to become gods).

This is exactly what I plan for the goddess of beauty: to first have someone playing role of an unicorn sage and then if she manages to establish religion for the goddess (the goddess awakens if she has enough worshippers) she may pass the role of the unicorn sage to that player who succeeded in quest and awakened the goddess and assume role of the goddess herself. Naturally yhe unicorn sage might now become high priestess of her religion.

Also, I think you were correct in placing 50% under Mandor as the person who I'm luring to play her is perfect for playing style which you descriped, or at least she appears so. :)

I'm also planning to make a weather god whose role I'm going to assume myself if I ever get bored to the role of a sage, assuming it still free and if I'm ever accepted as a god. :)

- Beregar

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-20 17:42:11
In-Reply-To: 867

Killing is serious business in Majik. After all, in the world of permanent death and rather life-like battlesystem even a peasant may be able to kill armored night. I don't see players getting very eagerly to killing business if they are likely to get killed themselves. No, I believe most serious killers will assume a stealthy way to kill people making them assassins (which, imho, is good).

Plus, I don't understand what do you mean with "to get powers for killing". Do you think that gods give their divine blessings and curses away just like that? Only priests are able to divine magic in larger scale, dedicated worshippers who are not part of the church hierarchy may get littl blessings (or curses) like their disease healed or to get the god to curse their enemy's business and the like.

Also, I believe players who worship evil gods will have hard time in lawful and good cities where good churches have obviously greater power. In such places the worship must be hid "underground". This is the balance factor, among orcs it is right to worship "evil" gods like harum where as in common human town it is allowed to worship only good and neutral gods. It doesn't matter if either location has worshippers of opposing gods because they churches have to remain silent and hiding.

Gods get their divine points from sacrifices and prayers. It doesn't matter who gives them and for what purpose. However, like Yorkaturr said a long time ago: he will surely zap any mortal idiot who sacrifices flowers to him. :)

Yes, there has never been alignments, we have just used the word to more easily descripe acts and personalities of the gods. Thus Dazzt is a good god because he gives life and heals but it doesn't prevent him from punishing stubborn people though if he killed them, it would give more power to Yorkaturr (expands his army of undead as it is what happens to cursed individuals, I believe). Besides, this is not only what *I* want, it has been stated so many times earlier: haven't you read the old mailing list posts?

- Beregar

From: Archantes
Date: 2002-02-20 18:15:23
In-Reply-To: 869

This sounds good. So in the beginning there is only some gods that have power but if you 'find a new one'.. This can actually create an illusion of whole new religions being born.

First there was a rumour.. then someone saw a miracle.. so I dedicated my life for worship.. and now we have hundreds of followers.

From: Archantes
Date: 2002-02-20 18:06:04
In-Reply-To: 870

I think in general we see this alingment system quite similar.. Regardless of this little argument 'round here :)

Plus, I don't understand what do you mean with "to get powers for killing". Do you think that gods give their divine blessings and curses away just like that? Only priests are able to divine magic in larger scale, dedicated worshippers who are not part of the church hierarchy may get littl blessings (or curses) like their disease healed or to get the god to curse their enemy's business and the like.

I ment it to more like what players wish.. There is obviously no guarantee to get one - propably ever in most cases :)

Ok, you're right, the powers can stay balanced if players have difficulties when killing and doing other sinister things..

How do they supervise that there is no heathenish services held? Do the city guards tell you to stop when you pray for wring god in public or does it even matter?

Thus Dazzt is a good god because he gives life and heals but it doesn't prevent him from punishing stubborn people though if he killed them

Yes, I know.. did I say something else?

haven't you read the old mailing list posts

Yes, but only some. I have to admit that :)

From: yorkaturr
Date: 2002-02-20 17:51:02
In-Reply-To: 870

Confirmed.

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-20 20:34:41
In-Reply-To: 872

How do they supervise that there is no heathenish services held? Do the city guards tell you to stop when you pray for wring god in public or does it even matter?

I'm sure players are more than capable finding such individuals and well... public execution sounds good for me, but I suppose it is up to players. However, I'd assume that if a "good" church finds presence of an evil one, that would pretty much mean execution and probably not in a pleasant way. Ever read those stories about medieval church inquisition?


Yes, I know.. did I say something else?

Actually, I think that wasn't reply to your comments, I just don't remember to whose it was... maybe it was a general ramble? :)


- Beregar

From: Archantes
Date: 2002-02-20 22:30:31
In-Reply-To: 881

Hehee.. That is fascinating! Public executions.. I'd love to see one ;) Great idea. How can you arrange one? Could there be possibility for enchain people?

So, let's say we have a priest in town. He wants to ingratiate himself with his deity. So he promices a reward for revealing heathen.. Oh my.. We have execution by hanging tonight. ;P

Yup, I have read about the inquisition of catholic church and eg. the jesuits.. ;)

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-20 23:01:01
In-Reply-To: 881

Hmm.. Beregar are you sure you are not giving people more credit for high morale than they are willing to support?

Surely each and every town is atleast somewhat corrupt. Not mention the darker people: orcs, dark elves, and alike.

And besides: don't we start the game soon after the cataclysm, so there's no telling how righteous, good.. or how evil and twisted different cities will evolve to be. Is there?

But yes.. the idea of a public execution if funny =P.. would like to see that happen in 3d.. and the heads will roll.. food for the gallows!

In evil cities, what they do to worhsippers of Dazzt for example, must be severly worse. Public torture sounds right.

.M

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-21 11:28:55
In-Reply-To: 890

Of course they will be corrupt, if they were not, I would be seriously dissapointed as I want to see public executions. ;)

The game will start soon after the cataclysm but remember that we will have only one player race when the game opens. I understood, however, that this doesn't mean there won't be any other (NPC) races living elsewhere in areas that are not yet open. You would assume that they won't just sit idle and when/if they open to players, there might be some cities already. I see your point though, who says that moon elven players will play goody goodies and dark elves will be evil? I suppose sages and gods can influence that a bit but in the end it is players who define whether the race is "good" or "evil".

- Beregar