sages.

From: darshan
Date: 2002-02-11 00:46:44

I've been hearing some preposterous claims about sages.


00:45 if a sage has killed a god, i don't think it should be as a direct action

00:45 well crap my sage killed hundreds of gods

00:46 yeah, isnt that why sages were created to begin with? to fight the lesser gods?
00:46 or 'new gods'
00:46 then what happened durring the god wars... presumable many ,many gods died



So what the hell is this? The concept of sages was invented just for one purpose: sages were to help the first mortals to start the game. Now people are designing evil god-killer sage characters.

From: darshan
Date: 2002-02-11 00:47:33
In-Reply-To: 663

The above lines with clock times on them were from various people in #majik.

From: sirdar
Date: 2002-02-20 14:25:32
In-Reply-To: 663

I dislike the ideas of a God-killer sages. It almost makes me feel like that people are driving their own interests instead of the game's. And imho, a sage capable of killing Gods is probably very capable of doing other things beside his god breakfast - like be a God himself. :P

From: hook
Date: 2002-02-11 00:54:42
In-Reply-To: 664

please read the azlok sage desc...YES sages, for game purposes, were yes made by us, the designers, to help players...BUT in order for us to develope interesting characters for us to ROLEPLAY lattitude should be given in developeing sage's histories and creation.

The only limitations that I see are that the descriptions should not conflict with other peoples descriptions, and that when the game starts the main motivation of the sage characters will be to help PCs play the game.

From: hook
Date: 2002-02-11 01:06:35
In-Reply-To: 665

oh yeah and presumably when the game starts sages will not be able to kill gods....even though they may have in the past.

From: sweatshop
Date: 2002-02-11 01:29:55
In-Reply-To: 666

http://majik3d.org/archive/majik-design/msg00375.html

[QUOTE](from http://majik3d.org/archive/majik-design/msg00378.html)

"Yep.. some ancients become sages, or perhaps some sage could even be an ex-lesser god who had his/her ass kicked in the wars. and was reduced to a "mere" sage :) needless to say his knowledge would still be vast. and personal realtions to existing gods pretty mixed up."
[QUOTE]

By which could be inferred that sages at some time in the past (or even now) could have powers with which god-slaying is not unfathomable.

From: yorkaturr
Date: 2002-02-11 11:32:25
In-Reply-To: 667

Lesser gods are not even comparable to proper gods.

From: yorkaturr
Date: 2002-02-11 11:47:35
In-Reply-To: 668

Just to put it better, Sage characters are not able to rival with gods head-on nowadays, because all the gods in Majik are those that have already survived the god wars, and thus are inevitably among the most powerful gods that have ever existed.

So, your Sage characters can no longer kill gods, nor can they even damage them.

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-13 14:52:48
In-Reply-To: 669

The basic idea after ancients and sages is as follows: Ancients were created by the greater gods, some for fun, some for servants and some because they helped gods to oversee things in the world while it was developing.

Then there became a time when the gods no longer had need for ancients so ancients pretty much continued doing what they were doing, overseeing the world in spirit form, eventually gathering enough influence to become a lesser god.

Some ancients, now that they were free, decided to become "flesh". They assumed a form made of normal matter of the world while still remaining partly spiritual entities.

Aeons passed and new gods, former ancients, started to grow hungry for power. They started to fight with each other, devouring essence of those they conquered and thus gained more influence over elder god's creation, the world. These became God level gods, such as Shinael. So now there were ancients (those in flesh), lesser gods (former ancients), gods (former lesser gods) and greater gods, who had always been above others.

Fights between gods and lesser gods flared into full-scale war knon as the god wars. This was the time when many god level gods were blinded by their own power and thought that they could topple the elder gods. The god wars lasted quite long, mostly because the elder gods really didn't have any interest in something that they saw as a petty squabble of their former servants. God wars certainly wasn't a threat to them as no lesser level god could ever topple one who was not part of the creation itself, as was the case with these lesser beings who were former ancients.

While god wars continued, the remaining ancients (those in flesh) remained in physical form protecting the world from madness of the gods. It was in the end of the god wars when mortal beings were created and god wars pretty much ended then, partially because some of the elder gods took pretty harsh actions against lesser level gods but mostly because new gods had managed to destroy and consume essence of all but the most powerful (or secretive) of their brethren.

When mortals arrived to world, the ancients took great interest in them educating and protecting these lesser beings, becaming as sages. This was before the cataclysm which was brought by the mortals who misused the knowledge and power taught them by the sages.

Cataclysm was possible only because most lesser gods and gods became too dependant on mortal worshippers. They were greatly weakened when heresy spread like a wildfire and mortals opened gateways summoning elder creature's created by the elder gods and new gods alike. These beings brought death and destruction, fire and brimstone to the world and new gods, weakened by lack of faith either hid or were destroyed by mortals and their servants.

Ancients, those who lived among the mortals and brought the knowledge to them, were first to predict upcoming cataclysm. Some were destroyed by the mortals and their conjurations, some with gods and rest wisely hid in deep and hidden places, plotting revenge over those who had betrayed them too or perhaps hoping for a new beginning and new opportunity to teach mortals, this time for their own benefit.

So, this is the story behind ancients, sages, new gods and elder gods, and how they are connected to each other.

- Beregar

From: sweatshop
Date: 2002-02-12 01:26:41
In-Reply-To: 669

I would completely agree with Yorkaturr's statements, and, anyway, I don't really see why the hell a "post cataclysm" sage would want to kill a god anyway. The issue was mainly with sage histories, when, if it happened some time long ago in the past, I don't see how that sort of god killing is bad, because in general . Even though, I would imagine it no easy feat, and would be unlikely to happen often.


Hope that clarifies matters a little.

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-20 14:41:20
In-Reply-To: 864

You speak words of wisdom. That was indeed my concern too, after all, my sage character (Maelvor) is one of the oldest (if based on time in the team) and I clearly stated in the desc that he far from being a match to even lesser gods.

While he is excellent in the truename magic and primal magic (the main focuses of the character), even they are not enough to face a god. It is good to remember that truename is closely connected to greater gods, so it is pretty damn powerful and while lesser and god levels gods may not actually be as good in its use as some sages, they certainly have a lot more power pack in their "miracles".

So no, i don't see sages or ancients killing gods, perhaps demigods but not true gods (lesser, god and greater). I agree that if you feel like killing gods, choose to be a god yourself. Lust for power is nothing new in this world... hmm, are you sure you are not really a god of lies and hunger for power, Mandor? Perhaps you even slipped earlier your true name, Ondoval! (which, I recall, was name of your god character before you chose to be Mandor ;)

- Beregar

From: hook
Date: 2002-02-20 18:52:25
In-Reply-To: 865

why do you people continue to rehash old stuff...Listen this is importatant...if a sage killed a god in the past, as in history, as in not in the game, this is fine...put it in your sage descriptions. BUT from WHEN the game STARTS no sage will have the power to kill gods. If it is nessasary to lower the power of sage ...ie it was stripped away or was lost then be sure to put that in your descriptions. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

--hook

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-20 20:25:39
In-Reply-To: 877

BECAUSE if it was possible in the past, it is possible in the present and the future. Why wouldn't it be? Because elder gods suddenly placed some artificial limit? Doesn't sound very sensible considering that they didn't give a shit when lack of mortal worship destroyed gods and brought the cataclysm.

Besides, it would be bad design considering how much we have placed emphasis on open power development. I don't want to face atrificial rules in the game. Unless you haven't noticed, I take great plains to explain things in fantasy way and even more so to make things fit to goals and theme decided long times ago - those very same things which gave the birth to Majik. I understand that you can't be aware of all these since you weren't in the team back then, hell, even I haven't heard all that stuff and I've been many years in the team. However, there are some things which simply don't fit the idea how things were planned to be, there are so many old (and present) issues, like for example role of the ancients and sages, which prevents all this.

Those ancients capable to kill gods didn't remain as ancients, they became gods themselves and more precisly: they didn't have power to do it before they were made as gods. Even more so, it was clearly stated that greater gods are not part of the creation, they are were born in the primodial world of void long before the creation existed. Only greater gods can dwell in the void, nothing else survives there. Ancients (sages) are part of the creation, as are normal gods, lesser gods and demigods because many of them were former ancients. Those gods can NEVER win or harm any greater god and thus why wouldn't they create weapons that could be used against them, like the swords in your description, as they could simply step into the void and destroy other gods. It doesn't matter how many times their wordly or spiritual (?) avatar is destroyed, they can always draw energy from the void if required. If you haven't noticed, this all descripes pretty well why only greater gods can use powers which mere gods can not: for example to remove players and the like.

As you see, the whole idea of god slaying sword is absurd considering the nature of elder gods: they don't care that much and why should they? Nothing threatens them except existence of other greater gods and if they fought with each other, surely they would not use any crude methods like swords or servants wielding them, besides, they couldn't harm the greater gods anyway.

In case you wonder why greater gods are so unbeatable, the answer is simple: what do you think would happen if some player playing a god suddenly takes part of Yorkaturr or Harum, or even worse, position of Namhas? Besides, if someone actually could win Namhas, it would lead to destruction of everything -> only void remains and only greater gods can live in there. All other types of gods: normal, lesser, and demigods can be destroyed, mortals can gain unimaginable power and defeat some demigod, then as a demigod he or she can gather enough power to destroy some lesser god and take his/her position etc etc. That happened very often in the god wars! Such player, however, could never take place of a greater god.

Does this clear things up?

- Beregar

From: hook
Date: 2002-02-20 21:51:51
In-Reply-To: 878

Please refer to sweatshops post #667 on this thread....that e-mail it refers to was written in 1999...I was on team then and even before. please stop refering to me as some newbie I have been on the team for years as well. Also just like a man is capable of making a sword that can be used to kill him the gods are capable of making a sword that is capable of them. Besides the sage I described has been in the worldbook for years, and has been generally aproved. Also namhas (the god) did create the world, so what? Almost anything created does become destroyed simply becouse the creator dies.
This is all mute though. azlok no longer has the streagth to use the swords to cut though the void...his power was stripped 10,000 years before the cataclysm. In order for a god to die by azlok's sword he would have to give back the streagth to him then stand still while azlok chops him. of course no god would be that stupid. If any god saw azlok in his current powers as a threat (which is highly unlikely) they would just UNMAKE him from afar. As in kilometers out of sword lengths range. This is the case with all sages.

--hook

From: Nahl_Shadore
Date: 2002-02-21 06:03:49
In-Reply-To: 882

Also namhas (the god) did create the world, so what? Almost anything created does become destroyed simply becouse the creator dies.

this is true, but there is one problem. Namhas (according to the worldbook) isn't just the creator, but he holds the world in his hands. If he were to be destroyed, nothing would hold reality together, dispersing it into the void.

From: raeky
Date: 2002-02-20 22:40:35
In-Reply-To: 882

does a lesser god or demi god have the power to create a sage/ancient?

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-20 22:06:01
In-Reply-To: 882

I understood Azlok's power like this (tell me is this right):

Azlok was created by the greater/elder gods (namhas, harum, mandor, yorkaturr, sinister, aluna, dazzt) against the lesser/new gods.

So Azlok never had the power to kill greater/elder gods, only new gods.

IMO it should be like this because of this point :

The void from which the greater/elder gods come from, is physically a different place than the creation.

Also new/lesser gods have their true shape/form inside the creation, and can then have other avatars also within the creation.

Greater/elder gods have their true shape/form in the void. There's nothing else in the void. Then they have a some sort of prime-avatar or arch-avatar inside the creation, which is equal to new/lesser god true form. This prime-avatar can then have different avatars just like new/lesser gods.

thought: do we require the latter in greater/elder gods case? could all of their avatars inside the creation be prime-avatars, equal in power to the true forms of new/lesser gods. This would perhaps make any avatar of an elder god impressively powerful. Clearly standing out from the crowd and making his/her/its presence felt.

Anyways. the void and the creation are separated. It's sopposed to be impossible for _anything_ within the creation to ever reach the void or affect things there. It would be like weaving a sword in england and hoping that it kills someone in the planet Mars ;-)

.M

From: hook
Date: 2002-02-20 21:59:22
In-Reply-To: 882

bleh corrections:

Also just like a man is capable of making a sword that can be used to kill him the gods are capable of making a sword that is capable of KILLING them.

Also namhas (the god) did create the world, so what? Almost anything created does NOT become destroyed simply becouse the creator dies.

--hook

From: hook
Date: 2002-02-20 22:59:59
In-Reply-To: 884

The void from which the greater/elder gods come from, is physically a different place than the creation.

Also new/lesser gods have their true shape/form inside the creation, and can then have other avatars also within the creation.

this is a sticky point. When I first wrote the azlok desc i was under the assumption that namhas was the only thing that truely came from the void. The other gods (elder or no) were then created either directly of indirectly (elder gods making other gods who then make ancients and man etc) by him...if he used void "stuff" to make the world and other gods then there is little distinction between aluna and a rock as to what is void stuff and what is not...it all is. Anyway there has been some drift away from this distingtion you (mandor) and yorka have begun to say that your gods or the evil three or what ever made yourselves from the void like namhas. If this is true please explicitly say so. Then we can adjust all the myths histories etc acourdingly which have been explicitly contradictory to this.

As to azlok ability to kill lesser gods or elder gods then my thinking that he was able to kill elder gods...the gods made him so in bad faith...each wanted to use him after the god wars to kill the other elder gods and take power. But namhas seeing the danger of this to balance gave azlok and his lover/sister Ilyna souls so the gods could not use him and her for this purpose....all without the other gods knowing and thinking that he was no more then "robot" to control. Anyway the whole thing with the azlok desc was to make an interesting sage description that included inuedo and trechery among the gods...he was born of war.

Basicly I see the god war as more then just skin deep. The elder gods were not just getting rid of the lesser gods they were vieing among themselves for power and control. Azlok was a potential tool for them to achive this but namhas seeing the danger (as he always does) tricks them all and plays a trump by making azlok and ilyna thinking beings thus destroying the lower elder gods schemes.

I would like to remind all of you that I am the only one who has written anything about the specifics of the God wars. If you wish to trash those description on a whim of contrived burecratic regulations then ill take my talents elsewhere. Good stories are not the product of commitees. Give designers latitude in thier creation. If you want the history of the world to fit only your pigion holed ideals then write the fucking thing yourself. We have gone on for years telling each other what majik is NOT...how about getting on with writing what it IS.

--hook

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-20 23:50:54
In-Reply-To: 888

No. The feeling I have that many Sages can even be equal, or greater, in power (or in knowledge, atleast) to demigods.

Then again, we have gods like Ghadar in the pantheon (Ghadar, according to the desc, was created by Warc. And Warc is a new god? or is he a lesser god?.. the impression I have is that Warc is a lesser god, and Ghadar a demigod? is this correct?)

Anyways that little item from the worldbook pretty much undoes my first impression ;-)

I guess this is one of the items we still need to decide upon: which gods/beings have the power to create new beings etc. Can a god create lesser gods, which in turn can create demigods? should this "creation" happen through normal reproduction. Like for example a lesser god could create a demigod via having sex with a mortal (like Hercules was born in the Greek mythology)

Any ideas?

.M

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-20 23:39:37
In-Reply-To: 889

Hook, hey, no need to get angry. I'v seen you more active than myself in the team for years, and I do appreciate your contribution.

I was just digging my memory and trying to remember how it was originally planned. (about the void and the creation)

Your view on the gods wars is quite appealing: it would indeed offer some change to the elder gods to disturbt the balance of power to some degree.

I would personally be interested in writing majik history in more detail. Creating a proper timeline of events and things. Before I start doing all that, I'll have to dig my memory alot and get the facts and design criteria right. That's partially what I'm trying to do here.

.M

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-21 11:51:21
In-Reply-To: 889

this is a sticky point. When I first wrote the azlok desc i was under the assumption that namhas was the only thing that truely came from the void...

Well, you obviously haven't read the worldbook then. See history in a large scale for example, it clearly states the creation of world occured after creation of the greater (elder) gods.

Anyway there has been some drift away from this distingtion you (mandor) and yorka have begun to say that your gods or the evil three or what ever made yourselves from the void like namhas. If this is true please explicitly say so.

They have not begun to say so, it has always been so. There are good justifications why it is so and I explained them in the previous posts which you obviously seem to take as personal insults.

I would like to remind all of you that I am the only one who has written anything about the specifics of the God wars.

No, you are not but I wonder why anyone hasn't placed previous design to the worldbook. I would do it, if I still had that in my HD (all Majik stuff was purged when I had to format the HD). Also, it is not coincidence that I know a lot about history of gods and the god wars: Without any false modesty, it was pretty much me who invented the god wars to explain creation of mortals and to bind all lose ends (descriptions of gods) together.

Also, I haven't seen you mentioning god wars in anywhere else except in your sage desc, or did I miss something? You always criticized my desires to change something but now you are not yourself ready to change a small desc, not even if it changes something, which has been decided a long time ago (in times of poor documentation).

This also proves that you were not in the team back then, right? If you had been, you would have realized that many ideas appear good to their inventor (for example many of my ideas) but may not fit to theme of Majik or others thought them bad, often with good reasons, such is life.

- Beregar

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-20 23:46:05
In-Reply-To: 891

To refresh our memory, here is the agreed design from the year 1999 :

(this is a direct paste from the memo we made after a joint meeting of the team)3. Events behind the creation

First there was Namhas alone in the void. After him came Aluna, Dalia and
Sinister. Aluna being 'white' Dalia being 'grey' and Sinister being
'black' After them came their descedants, Dazzt, Mandor, Harum and
Yorkaturr. Dalia got too close to Sinister and started being more black
than grey, this resulted in Aluna killing Dalia. These events took
namaless eons in the world of the void. Also while in the void the gods
experiemented, created servants, did their doings for many millena. After
eons of age Namhas decided that it was time for something greater, time to
start the creation. Gods pretty much destroyed or abandoned their old
affairs and servants, bahished them in the abyss. These 7 beings, namhas,
aluna, sinister, dazzt, mandor, harum and yorkaturr constructed the
universe and did the creation. They based the structure on prime particles
and alloved them to be manipulated, thus creating magic (above) they built
the whole creation based on similar rules - which however where on their
own everchanging hands. The rest of this history follows in Majik time
line.

4. The elder gods

Elder gods are the most powerful beings in the creation - pretty much
because its their own bloody creation :).. Their true forms can never
exist in the creation, they always have their true forms in the world of
the void. They always use avatars of projections to interact with the
creation, thou they can manipulate the creation even from the void. Their
true form can never be visible, material or anything alike. Their true
forms cannot be touched by anything in the creation, and thus they never
can be even harmed - except by each other. Only another elder gods can
really harm another. New gods or other beings can destroy the avatars of
elder gods, if they have enough power to do that - but just wait a while
and that elder god you just killed is back with even meaner avatar :) with
a venegance. Elder gods arent just only beings, but also forces that are
at work in the universe. Yorkaturr the god of death IS death in every
sense. When somebody dies Yorkaturr is there to take him away. The same
thing goes for Mandor, when sun has set his presence fills the world in
the form of darkness. The portions of elder gods overlap somewhat, but
that is ment to be so.

5. The new gods

New gods are the first servants and 'assistant powers' created by the
elder gods to control and manage the creation. The new gods now in
god-level power are the most promising ones of those ever made, they have
managed to survive for a very very long time, and they have considerable
power. Most powerful of them have about the same power and influence over
the creation as do the elder gods - witch the exception that they are part
of the creation, not outside it like the elder gods. They can be killed
and they can never exist in the primodial world of the void.

6. The ancients

The ancients are former new gods or beings who took the form of flesh.
They avoided the war of gods by doing this. Their share in the order of
things has become a smaller one over time. But they are the ancestors of
some races that dwell the world today. Sages belong to this race of the
ancients. Today after the cataclysm they are few in existence.

From: hook
Date: 2002-02-21 00:00:56
In-Reply-To: 893

I think this should be left open...with no real constraints...gods, demigods, ancients could have been made in the the way you described plus an infinate number of other ways. In those same myths venus was made from the discarded penis of a titan that was thrown into the sea by Zeus. Or perhaps it was his balls...i can't remember. Anyway the point is that the gods can be "Born" in many ways, and designers should be encuraged to come up with interesting and veried ways for their creations.

-hook

From: hook
Date: 2002-02-21 08:51:06
In-Reply-To: 896

This is fine.

I just wanted to point out that being the creator of the world does not nessarily mean also the sustainer. Also presumabley if a being is powerful enough to kill the sustainer then it is possible for a being to be powerful enough to take over as sustainer. This is not a a hard idea to grasp. In greek mythology zeus killed his father Chronos to take over as supreem god..chronos also killed his father Uranus to take over as well. Also in greek mythology it isn't even zeus who is the sustainer it is Altas. Zeus is just the king of the gods. Even in Majik's myth there is an elder god, Dalia, who is killed and the sphere that Dalia sustained was presumably taken up by other gods when she died. I am not saying that we should model our gods exactly like the greek gods...I am saying that just becouse a god is a creator or sustainer of parts or the whole of the world that it should not be assumed, by default, the world would come to an end from a god's death or retirement. In no way are these two things logically corillated and making pesudo-rational assumptions like this only limits our creative palettes. Especialy when they are assumed implicitly and not described explicitly

--hook

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-21 11:20:33
In-Reply-To: 897

btw who created Dalia?

- Beregar

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-21 12:16:41
In-Reply-To: 898

Do you mean who's idea the creation of Dalia was?

I think this might have been mine: althou the idea was born in conversation with others. The idea was that since there was a being of light (aluna) and a being of darknes (sinister) the should have been a somewhat greay area inbetween these two (dalia)

Later however Dalia got closer to Sinister and did not fullfill her function anymore. Aluna destroyed Dalia (perhaps with a little help from Namhas).. after that Dalias sphere of influence was divided between the other elders: namhas took a more active role in the balance between light and the dark - Mandor took Dalia's domain of twilight and shadows, aluna, sinister, yorkaturr, dazzt and harum probably took something aswell.

Perhaps we sould indeed go through the old mailinglist archives and write these events down to the worldbook more properly. Important stuff however.

.M

From: beregar
Date: 2002-02-21 12:23:25
In-Reply-To: 902

Perhaps we sould indeed go through the old mailinglist archives and write these events down to the worldbook more properly. Important stuff however.

Yes, we should do it since it has caused a lot misunderstandings lately. I think we should also read through descriptions of gods... well, the whole worldbook, and correct some mistakes and inconcistencies (sp? :) as there are some, especially in the descriptions of the gods.

- Beregar

From: mandor
Date: 2002-02-21 13:36:15
In-Reply-To: 903

Yep yep.

I started drafting up a new description for Mandor. That still needs quite alot of development. My goal is to give quite detailed and precise description of why, who, what, etc Mandor is. What are his motivators, dynamics with other gods and personality traits.

I'm even going to write famous quotes by Mandor ;-) A few of them might be something like: "I brought about the destruction of humanity once, what makes you think I would leave it at that?" (Mandor in a speech to the Unholy Cabal, after the Cataclysm) - "Shinael, Shinael, I was there when you were born, and I saw the hunger of power burning in your eyes, alas! today you stand as the mighty god of nature - but where do you stand tomorrow, Shinael?" (Mandor in conversation with Shinael, during the cataclysm), and naturally one of the most famous ones "Trust me".

I think every sage and god should do something like this. Describe themselves in more detail. You might have a very good and solid impression of your character, his personality traits etc.. but the rest of us won't naturally have equally good insight. I think good roleplaying requires you to know alot about the other characters in your immediate presence. Gods also need to know awful lot about the sages, if gods are supposed to interact and act through sages they should know them very well indeed. Also the dynamics friends-enemy-ally-alliance-etc relationships in the pantheon are vitally important to model and to udnerstand.

.M