Character attributes

From: yorkaturr
Date: 2002-01-23 11:52:11

By character attributes I mean such things like "hitpoints" and "mana" that frequently appear in role-playing games. In short, the only character attributes we have now are "mental endurance" and "physical endurance", because they can be expressed linearly, and hence a generalized numeric value is sufficient, meaning that you can be "a little tired" or "very tired" or something in between.

Since we have our own quite unique systems of magic, I wouldn't like the "mana" attribute at all (however, I do not have any ideas how to replace this), and since our combat will be based on hit locations, there's no logical reason to have "uniform hitpoints". Of course, several hit locations being damaged at a time has a cumulative effect on the character as a whole, but this could be simply expressed as a general reminder of the character's condition, and would only affect special situations such as getting stunned easier etc. In Majik 4, we had a hit point system that still had uniform hit points for characters as well as hit location hitpoints, but I'd like to get rid of the former.

Ideas and thoughts concerning this would be appreciated. I will come up with formulas for calculating these once we've come to an agreement.

From: darshan
Date: 2002-01-23 11:54:56
In-Reply-To: 312

You're right, a general über-hitpoint number would be superfluous if we have separate hit values for individual bodyparts.

From: darshan
Date: 2002-01-23 12:01:37
In-Reply-To: 312

Regarding mana. We won't necessarily need a magical energy variable. The power needed for a magical spell could come directly from the magician's physical/mental endurance; throwing a spell would weaken the caster for a while, and trying too much could simply make him collapse in exhaustion. As the caster's magical skills develop, he would be able to spend less and less of his physical and mental endurance for creating magical effects

From: yorkaturr
Date: 2002-01-23 12:03:27
In-Reply-To: 314

Yes, this is a good system in my opinion. I was hoping someone would suggest this in fact ;)

From: Archantes
Date: 2002-01-23 16:35:43
In-Reply-To: 314

True. IMHO it is simply the most useful way, and in addition could be expanded to normal use of weapons. Physical endurance would determine how long and hard a characer is able to use his sword. And when you are more skilled, you require less power for you learn to use weapon more effectively.
When character becomes exhausted his ability to inflict damage and parry etc. would start to drop - as his strenght fails.

And this dividing to two endurance values - and no more those manapoints ever - would work out with the 3-way rest system brought out earlier. Even with the right terms.. :)

From: beregar
Date: 2002-01-25 10:02:35
In-Reply-To: 314

I would still like to make it possible for players top tap into other sources for spell's energy, such as nodes and items. I also think that this energy expenditure should be dynamically linked to effect, area of effect and other variables so "normal" smaller combat spells wouldn't cost much at all to cast but larger spells would quickly have heftier cost to make nodes and items more important.

Actually I'd like to see a system where players can define area of effect and distance for their spells. So there really wouldn't be much difference between a normal combat fireball and town torching fireball, other than in size and energy consumption.

This would allow players create more and more powerful spells as they grow in strength and would actually force player's to use powerful artifact/node area for energy source to cast most powerful spells (as there shouldn't be any arbitary limits for size of a spell other than those related to game speed issues). Perhaps those items/places should be somehow aligned to different prime's (such as fire, air, destruction etc etc) encouraging players to focus in developing one prime style over others.

so, what do you think?

- Beregar

From: yorkaturr
Date: 2002-01-25 10:48:34
In-Reply-To: 319

Yes. Players could carry items loaded with magical energy with them, and they would be "drained" when a spell is cast, perhaps damaging the item as well. Maybe truename spheres could be an infinite source for magical energy as well as offering true names to the players? At least they should be indestructable. Anyway, I like the idea of being able to scale the spells in intensity and area of effect, and most spells should indeed be applicable to that scenario. Only the most powerful of spells would have a fixed "cost" to them.

However, spell energy should not be contained within a specific location to tap energy from, because there's no point of casting "fireball" in some remote magical area with nobody around :) Of course, magical areas could have a fairly large sphere of effect, so that being within a 500m radius from some magical node could "boost" a player's spellcasting ability. Also, areas could "load" the players with some sort of magical energy that would otherwise be unattainable (this should however be very, very rare and it should not be shown to the player, because there is no "mana" attribute).

As for areas and items being aligned to primes, I would have to say no to that. Not all spells, not even most of them, relate to any kind of prime. Spellcasting based on primes is a matter of specialization mostly used by those who call themselves "elementalists". Remember, that we still have different types of "spell caster classes", despite having a uniform casting system.

From: beregar
Date: 2002-01-25 12:30:56
In-Reply-To: 325

I would like to players establish buildings/towers and such around the nodes as use the power large scale spellcasting such as permanent shielding that drains power from the node instead of caster. Perhaps there was even some permanently beneficial effect like that the area increases crop production or provides endless supply of healing water etc etc. and actually endless "spellpower" is one of them as it allows you, as I said before, permanently protect building(s) in the node area and the like. Also, I'd like to some system where players can cast spells at distance so they could drain powers from the node. This would also encourage players to found Lorien type areas.

I was planning node's to be quite powerful source of energy and thus I'd like to limit the casting area somewhat (distant spells are taxing and should be complicate). This could be done for example by allowing casting of a spell through some sort of scrying device. If we have mirrors/pools etc for example, I hope it is possible to target creatures and places with them and make an "reflection" of target creature/place to show.

Actually, it would be cool if every creature had randomly generated "true" (not related to truename spellcasting) name and you could use it for distant spellcasting, such as remote viewing. This could also apply to buildings and other constructs, I believe it wouldn't take that much processing power to save each name into some list. Filing through this list might be another matter but perhaps there are some codewise solution (like that certain names are only applicable to buildings and thus search is automatically done through building name section).

This name could be then used in context of a spell and if enough power was gathered, it could affect the target even from other side of the world. This would allow orc shamans of Harum to conjure earthquakes in Nemen even if they themselves dwell in Tragothar (or whichever was the place where orcs live). Of course the energy expenditure would be huge and that's why it might take days or even weeks to gather enough energy for it... This type spellcasting is high magic if any.

About prime's. Well, perhaps you are right and perhaps not all should be able to tap power of a node. As a area it is, after all, closely connected to elements in nature.

- Beregar

From: beregar
Date: 2002-01-25 13:30:36
In-Reply-To: 333

Node stuff:

Since there was a bit uncertainity about what I meant with a node, I'll explain. Imagine a small pond fed by a spring, when you remove water from the spring, the total amount of water is reduced but will eventually reach its original level because of water flowing from the spring. You could actually draw so much water that the whole pond is emptied or only so little that the spring brings forth enough water to counter it.

Nodes are like that, they are pools of energy from which a skilled spellcaster can draw out energy to fuel their spells. When spellcaster taps energy from the node, he or she reduces total amount of energy in it, but energy slowly replenishes itself (like a pool with a spring) to normal levels. Of course the spellcaster could drain enough energy to empty the node completelly but the magical "spring" eventually recharges it again. The caster could also draw forth only so little energy that it really wouldn't have any effect to node as it is immediatelly replenished.


Then a bit about spellcasting:

Instead of a spell instantly draining all energy from a source when it is cast, there could be a total energy level of spell required to cast it (calculated from effect, area of effect etc) and that the spell first either draws all possible energy and if it is not enough, the caster can wait for spell to charge up fully. That is, if our system is not such that caster falls unconcious/dies if all energy is drained out of him (meaning that it drains physical stamina). Though I don't like this system myself as it is not very dynamic.

Second option would be having the spell to drain certain amount of energy in a fixed time (1 energy unit/second for example). That way the caster need not to define strength and area of effect of a spell as it is automatically enlarged and strenghtened per energy unit(s).

This would allow caster also to replenish their own energy sources by drawing power from a node or an item. I also see this better solution as it allows spells like shield to be upkept indefinately if there is enough energy. This also makes more powerful spells more time consuming to cast as it takes time to charge the spell.

So in general. When the spellcaster starts casting spell there is first the "charge up" phase where player charges the chosen spell (by holding mouse button for example) and then "release" phase when the spell is released. If effect is instantaneous (such as fireball), spell energy expenditure process ends there. If the spell is continuous, however, such as a shield spell, it continuously draws energy from a source, such as a node or an item.

I hope you noticed that I didn't write anything about "mana" or such. Whatever this energy is, it is not necessary for players to know it.

- Beregar

From: raeky
Date: 2002-03-05 23:42:46
In-Reply-To: 334

I like the ideas of "nodes" and other natural imoveable sources of infinite magical energy.

If such a place exists 5000 miles away from anything, as soon as a player finds it, they will start construction of there own city, since we allow them to build and construct citys/buildings/anything/everything in no time at all some magical guild (yes players will align and create "clans" and "guilds" without our help.) will start a magical city there to protect there sorce of energy.

This would also be a log on the fire for player to player fights and even better city against city, since whoever controls the area arround the "node" will have great untold powers. Kinda like the same way whoever controls a sphear will have great power.

These are ways to provide endless quests, because people will always want to be incontrol of the nodes.

And the "flow" rate of the node (kinda like your spring example) will dictate how much "contiuous" spells can be cast. If its a slow node at like (forgive the units/example) 50 gal/min and you want to cast a forever proteection on your entire city that would take 200 gal/min you wouldn't be able to do it. But if you had a 500000 gal/min node in your city, you could protect your entire city and do ALOT more.

So some nodes can be quite slow "flow rates" while others (prolly not to many) be very high flow rates.

From: Takomtor
Date: 2002-03-06 06:17:56
In-Reply-To: 1025

"So some nodes can be quite slow "flow rates" while others (prolly not to many) be very high flow rates."

Also, some flows might not have a "bond" for storaging at all, so mainly continuous spells could be used, or then some smaller scale "one-time-big-blasts"

Heavy flow would probably see cities built on location as huge storages with slow flow might turn to be a constant focus of warfare (everyone would like to keep it for themselves for that one REALLY important spell, but as it charges up so slowly, it needs constant defending and can't produce advantage in battle)

Truly great addition to enrich the game.

Thank you Beregar, this node concept is very interesting.

From: raeky
Date: 2002-03-07 21:17:56
In-Reply-To: 1030

I donno if i like the concept of different uses restricted for the energy. The energy that comes out of a node can be used for anything, only restriction is how much the node holds (the size of the pond) and how fast it refills (the flow rate of the spring).

From: Takomtor
Date: 2002-03-08 06:28:59
In-Reply-To: 1033

I agree, the energy in a node should be used to do anything, but - as you said - couldn't a node be big or small - have a strong or weak flow? If yes, it would steer ones actions to certain direction, right?

numbers.
1. node size 1000, flow 500
2. node size 100000, flow 10

Node one would probably be used to support area spells that demand continuous flow and node two would probably be used to pool energy for a one big blast, since so little is coming per time variable.

From: origon
Date: 2002-03-09 01:06:19
In-Reply-To: 1038

How close do you need to be to the node to use its energy? X meters, or can you leech more magic_power/sec the closer you are to it? If you are exactly at the spot it would mean that you can leech max_flow.

Since this is a 'pond', is there a buffer for the node? a pond filling up with X magic_power, that you can use at once? And what happens if you as a lousy magician would try to control a great node? Would you blow up?

From: Takomtor
Date: 2002-03-09 06:21:58
In-Reply-To: 1041

This message spreads bit too wide, but maybe you find something mind lifting from it to keep your creative process flowing.

Something simple and visible... Could these nodes appear as strong beams of light, reaching for the skies? That would be then the "flow" Touching this light would enable channeling. Staying in this light would put a person under strong mental stress and if the spell takes long to perform, chanter might faint and be slowly consumed by power. So everyone could try out to see if they are strong enough to take the stress. This way no one person would be enough to control a node, since keeping up area spells might require frequent renewal. Physically it could be just a bright circle on the ground, very localized.. Some would be easy to spot in the beginning of the game as they would light the skies, some would be in the caves or under ruins, so perfect source for quests (like raeky remarked).

So, people would rush for these lights (I know, I would probably investigate something grand like this) and fight for them - noticing - it takes too much effort to argue and bigger factions would probably organize to take control of a node, building a protective structure to hide it and defend it...

This light phenomena could be explained with lava kind of example, by saying that the world is magic energy and lot of it is still in primary shape (well, you have to excuse my choice of words... there was lot of discussion about primary magic etc. I don't really refer to any of that) under the actual material world. This energy would try to break free from its prison and some of it flows through cracks and finally manages to escape to sky... bit like putting a flash light under a blanket full of holes.

This could also lead to entropia style of destruction of the world, somehow the magic that escapes, doesn't support the world anymore and this would result into earhtquakes etc. Slowly degenerating, gods would need to input new energy to keep up with the lost energy. Creatures could generate new energy into the world (soul) and gods would get some of this energy from their followers. Gods could then influence to the areas of the changes let them happen, or prevent them - collapse of a mountain would be evident, so using some of this energy (could be the divine points system) would stop the collapse and move it to future, thereby saving gods followers and enabling god to keep accumulating energy from his followers. Letting the mountain to collapse would kill followers and gods energy flow would be diminished. Of course, I can't really say, if this would be fun.... probably not.

What else... well, thats it for now.

From: raeky
Date: 2002-03-09 08:58:50
In-Reply-To: 1041

likely if you are a bad magician you would have same chance to cast the spells you normally do but you won't be useing your "internal" energy execpt you'll be useing the nodes energy. Buy useing energy from a node you don't gain any more magical abilitys, you just have more power to cast more spells or longer spells or spells with greater effects.

I presume the further away from the node the less energy you can drain from it. We should make a formula for that.
If you have never visited the node, as in you don't know it exists, and you are close to it, you shouldn't be able to draw powers from it, cause you don't know it exists. you have to visit the node first.

I think a pond or graphic of some type of pool of energy/light something would be a good representation. Some ancients might of even made very fancy fountains to hold the energy as it came out of the ground. And thus prolly are already inside a city.

I like the idea of a visual graphic for the magical energy comming out of these nodes, I think it would look nifty :)

If a magiction wants to learn how to cast a protect spell. I supose that would be a spell they can learn and cast with there own powers to protect them selves right before a battle or something, then that same spell could be used with a node to cast a much larger effect version on a building or city. And with enough experience in it you'd be able to use the full flow of the node to cast a permenet spell that will always drain energy from the node. If you used the entire flow rate for your spell then the node will be useless as long as your spell is in effect, since there is no energy left for other spells.

From: raeky
Date: 2002-03-09 09:01:27
In-Reply-To: 1042

I like the idea of a pool of energy or pond or fountain. Graphicly represented as liquid. It has more of a visual element, and is harder to find for the players then a big bright light beam going up into the sky that could be seen from any high advantage point.

I assume if you where crazy enough to get into this pond or pool of energy you'd be completely destroyed and absorbed into the node. Putting ones body into a direct source of powerful magical energy isn't highly advised. You draw energy from it from just being near it.

From: Takomtor
Date: 2002-03-10 03:57:33
In-Reply-To: 1043

Actual fountain is nice idea, some places might even have small magicfalls that come from the side of a mountain and form a small bond.

Of course this "magic water" should look rather odd.

What if actually touching this energy would have severe effects, consider it for example as fire.

I think magic user should be able to notice this energy source and tap it. Only restricting factor should be the distance from the pool, maybe logarithmic... so the best results come when standing very close, also efficiency falls rapidly, when moving away from the node.

The physical size of a bond could relate to the pool width, so there wouldnt be depth of the bond. So strong node would need something big to protect it.