From: origon
Date: 2003-05-19 22:24:29
I will post a rather long #majik chat log that led up to that people wanting Yorka as Lead Programmer, please read it through.
All cheer Yorka.
He should return with additional information.
The log starts with some random ramble that leads to serious chatting.
May 19
20:48 :: or then make some Majik - the Hack and Slash - 3D and charge people money for playing it so we can concentrate on making the proper Majik :P
20:48 :: $1 per 1exp
20:48 :: people will be queuing to make us rich
20:48 :: each time you want to spend your gathered exp you need to deposit money :)
20:49 :: we could make this majik, lean it towards hack and slash and people would have to pay for extralives
20:49 :: and make it harder :)
20:49 :: !
20:49 :: haha
20:50 :: $50 per life ;)
20:51 :: i think the developer team of istaria was the same kind of hobbyist team that majik is, they just made the game in their free-time, their concept is even quite similar in some ways
20:51 :: then they scored a publisher contract
20:51 :: now they're all rich
20:52 :: and they didn't even have to sell out their original concept
20:53 :: hmm i mean Horizons
20:53 :: i think it was called Istaria at first
20:53 :: and their deal i've heard is such that the publisher doesn't interfere with in-game issues, the team is free to express their own vision, the publisher just handles the accounts
20:56 :: well, they're not exactly all rich yet, the game is in beta-phase still, but it seems to be the most promising and uncompromising mmorpg so far, so i think they'll be popular
20:57 :: all we need is to get the game in a decent shape, after that I'm ready for business proposals :P
20:57 :: i think it's a bit too late, it's a hard sell now that the competition is everywhere
20:58 :: every major game publisher has their own mmorpg already running or coming up
20:58 :: nod, the big mmorpg bubble will pop soon
20:58 :: there are like 70 mmorpgs in development
20:59 :: I'm pretty sure most of them will die out in a few years
20:59 :: though, after that it's even harder to get an MMORPG published :)
20:59 :: like the world of warcraft from blizzard, that's coming in a few years.. their concept is still "kill some monsies and gain levels, oh yeah, it's in a warcraft environment"
20:59 :: "This thing didn't work the last time we tried it, why would it now?"
20:59 :: how original
21:00 :: actually I would settle for a decent monetary compensation if I could code/play god around Majik
21:00 :: they get the subscriptions just for the name "Warcraft" stamped to it
21:00 :: blizzard will not have any problem finding players, most will come from Diablo-scane
21:01 :: no need to produce any actual content
21:01 :: scene
21:01 :: Blizzard has enormous marketing resources as well
21:02 :: i think it will be one of the more immersive games out htere
21:02 :: how do you figure
21:02 :: I don't see why there couldn't be a smaller commercial game like Majik that would ensure food and lodging for its developers and designers :)
21:02 :: races that people identify with
21:03 :: any good "puukkohippa" games i should know about?
21:03 :: it's not like everyone should be a millionnaire
21:03 :: just bought new comp so could as wel try something out
21:03 :: the races are well designed, they must use the race belonging in some way?
21:03 :: yeah, the majik concept is still quite original, if the game is up and running i think it'll be no problem making it commercial
21:04 :: so go code
21:04 :: btw, any progress on landscape test?
21:05 :: the only real competition so far is the above mentioned Horizons mmorpg, which is halfway there but not quite
21:05 :: last time i checked there had not been progress on the base components for a month
21:05 :: Dawn mmorpg used to have the exact same concept as majik, but i think they died because of lack of financing
21:06 :: i often wondered if Dawn stole some of the ideas from majik-design mailinglist :P
21:07 :: we need a leader! :)
21:07 :: grr
21:09 :: we need to hire a motivator
21:09 :: let's hire a consulting firm
21:11 :: would things work if one person was paid as project leader?
21:11 :: half time or something
21:11 :: we have everything but motivation
21:12 :: are you suggesting you need money? :)
21:12 :: project leader, not lead designer
21:13 :: tho i think i would be more motivated if i could affect things for real :)
21:14 :: origon, designate me something to do.
21:14 :: no, not lead.
21:16 :: my situation in this project feel like sitting at the train station throwing flowers at the trains that stand still
21:17 :: without being able to turn on the power
21:17 :: you have to do it gradually
21:17 :: or we could get someone that has enough rank or respect to tell all people what to do
21:18 :: i don't feel that i can affect the code part much because they are so 'merlin'-like
21:19 :: yeah that's true
21:19 :: noone can demand anything from code
21:19 :: currently
21:19 :: well, dazzt could
21:19 :: but the problem is dazzt is the only one doing it :P
21:19 :: I don't think demanding anything from anyone is the right thing to do here.
21:19 :: and this tringe guy
21:19 :: which is nice
21:20 :: yorka, no, we could hire another 50 people to the project so that they can idle around as well
21:20 :: the reason for why we have a kazillion people in majik is because noone demands anything
21:21 :: a demand always needs to have a catch
21:21 :: you learn stuff
21:21 :: "If you don't do this, I'll..."
21:21 :: your out of the majik team, where all the 1337 people are
21:21 :: thats how planeshift works
21:21 :: how about "if you do this, we'll finally get to play this game before the year 2500"
21:22 :: I think people worry too much. Things will happen in time.
21:22 :: of course you need to praise people for doing things instead of nagging on them
21:22 :: All things come to the one who waits :)
21:22 :: not majik
21:23 :: titaanivolvo!
21:23 :: one thing that would motivate people would be to somehow insert them a picture of what the finished product would be like
21:24 :: dazzt has said that he does what people tell him to do, that he does not really want to be lead
21:24 :: so we do not really have anyone leading code
21:24 :: you're referring to the carrot testplatform? or landscapetest?
21:24 :: landscapetest
21:24 :: this is true
21:24 :: carrot is only namhas atm
21:24 :: and me
21:24 :: coders are not leaders usually :)
21:25 :: yes
21:25 :: how about yorka for a leader then?
21:25 :: yorka is too evil :P
21:25 :: do you have enough interest/time
21:25 :: :)
21:25 :: yorka has authority
21:26 :: which is always nice for a leader
21:27 :: Hmm.
21:28 :: i mean i think one of the core devs should take an active position in the project
21:28 :: and namhas seems to quite preoccupied with whatever
21:35 :: we have all the elements needed to progess this thing, we have a few active designers, we have a few active coders, all that's needed is the push to make things moving
21:35 :: progress even
21:36 :: darshan, your task is to discuss with keksi how the god/sage system should work
21:36 :: I'll try.
21:37 :: what will be the first thing to do? a crude timeplan?
21:37 :: The first thing to do is figuring out what we have now and figuring out what we need.
21:38 :: design or code-wise?
21:38 :: code
21:38 :: code, then design
21:38 :: shall we discuss that now?
21:38 :: ok, origon still stays the design leader?
21:38 :: is yorka lead code-person, and yorka+origon is the lead?
21:39 :: how do you prefer it, yorka?
21:41 :: let's share, it'll be much less of a shock that way for me
21:42 :: ok, so im free to bitch about code not doing anything at you?
21:42 :: and you whine about design laziness
21:42 :: in nicer words
21:42 :: without fighting if possibly :)
21:43 :: possible
21:43 :: harum is listed as lead designer at webpage :)
21:43 :: yes
21:44 :: shall i change that now? do we have enough votes for the election? :)
21:44 :: i guess we should forum it
21:44 :: i don't think anyone will disagree :P
21:44 :: nod :)
21:44 :: just change it
21:44 :: lets just do it, and i'll post chat log to forums
21:44 :: ok with you, yorka?
21:45 :: Hum
21:45 :: hello dazzt :)
21:46 :: welcome to the revolution
21:47 :: any thoughts, dazzt?
21:48 :: The discussion is about project lead?
21:49 :: nod, starting with the trains without power
21:49 :: code-lead
21:49 :: mainly
21:52 :: hi guys
21:52 :: hello
21:54 :: origon, What I mean about "not leading" is that I think I'm not good as the person deciding where this project goes, but I'm quite sure I will have opinions about the code :)
21:54 :: talking about code ...
21:54 :: I have a first version of the octree here
21:54 :: Cool
21:55 :: Can I send it to you via dcc, as I don't have cvs access yet
21:55 :: dazzt, but do you see the problem that is pointed out, that noone has any 'orders' or 'demands'?
21:55 :: dcc is fine
21:56 :: it would be interesting to hear how you see your role in the project
21:56 :: currently
21:56 :: some bugchecking would be cool, before you add any files to the cvs
21:56 :: Have you made a test for it?
21:56 :: Ah, apparently
21:57 :: yes
21:57 :: origon, I think that people should always commit to some deadline
21:58 :: So tasks wouldn't be left hanging in the air for an indefinite time
21:58 :: do you have any deadlines atm?
21:59 :: (Well, having some tasks would be a start though ;))
21:59 :: hoho :)
21:59 :: Personal?
21:59 :: so one could say that you would not suffer from having exernal motivation? :)
22:00 :: a lead coder in this case
22:00 :: deadlines are a cheap way of motivating, but they tend to work; at least when one is paid
22:00 :: lucky me, I have chosen dazzt as my current lead coder :)
22:01 :: forgot to ask him, though ..
22:01 :: that just proves you have decent motivation
22:01 :: which is nice
22:01 :: we appreciate the help
22:01 :: I don't mind someone kicking me around (assigning tasks etc), but I most likely have something to say when the tasks are defined :)
22:01 :: nod
22:02 :: are you ok with yorka as lead?
22:02 :: indeed
22:03 :: has yorka fainted btw?
22:03 :: Yes
22:04 :: yes to 'ok as lead'?
22:05 :: Yeah ;)
From: origon
Date: 2003-05-19 22:28:25
In-Reply-To: 2676
that was extremely not good. the s were considered to be html, here is a edited version with names.
20:48 :: yorka: or then make some Majik - the Hack and Slash - 3D and charge people money for playing it so we can concentrate on making the proper Majik :P
20:48 :: keksi: $1 per 1exp
20:48 :: keksi: people will be queuing to make us rich
20:48 :: origon: each time you want to spend your gathered exp you need to deposit money :)
20:49 :: origon: we could make this majik, lean it towards hack and slash and people would have to pay for extralives
20:49 :: origon: and make it harder :)
20:49 :: yorka: !
20:49 :: keksi: haha
20:50 :: yorka: $50 per life ;)
20:51 :: keksi: i think the developer team of istaria was the same kind of hobbyist team that majik is, they just made the game in their free-time, their concept is even quite similar in some ways
20:51 :: keksi: then they scored a publisher contract
20:51 :: keksi: now they're all rich
20:52 :: keksi: and they didn't even have to sell out their original concept
20:53 :: keksi: hmm i mean Horizons
20:53 :: keksi: i think it was called Istaria at first
20:53 :: keksi: and their deal i've heard is such that the publisher doesn't interfere with in-game issues, the team is free to express their own vision, the publisher just handles the accounts
20:56 :: keksi: well, they're not exactly all rich yet, the game is in beta-phase still, but it seems to be the most promising and uncompromising mmorpg so far, so i think they'll be popular
20:57 :: yorka: all we need is to get the game in a decent shape, after that I'm ready for business proposals :P
20:57 :: keksi: i think it's a bit too late, it's a hard sell now that the competition is everywhere
20:58 :: keksi: every major game publisher has their own mmorpg already running or coming up
20:58 :: origon: nod, the big mmorpg bubble will pop soon
20:58 :: origon: there are like 70 mmorpgs in development
20:59 :: yorka: I'm pretty sure most of them will die out in a few years
20:59 :: yorka: though, after that it's even harder to get an MMORPG published :)
20:59 :: keksi: like the world of warcraft from blizzard, that's coming in a few years.. their concept is still "kill some monsies and gain levels, oh yeah, it's in a warcraft environment"
20:59 :: yorka: "This thing didn't work the last time we tried it, why would it now?"
20:59 :: keksi: how original
21:00 :: yorka: actually I would settle for a decent monetary compensation if I could code/play god around Majik
21:00 :: keksi: they get the subscriptions just for the name "Warcraft" stamped to it
21:00 :: origon: blizzard will not have any problem finding players, most will come from Diablo-scane
21:01 :: keksi: no need to produce any actual content
21:01 :: origon: scene
21:01 :: yorka: Blizzard has enormous marketing resources as well
21:02 :: origon: i think it will be one of the more immersive games out htere
21:02 :: keksi: how do you figure
21:02 :: yorka: I don't see why there couldn't be a smaller commercial game like Majik that would ensure food and lodging for its developers and designers :)
21:02 :: origon: races that people identify with
21:03 :: Rakel: any good "puukkohippa" games i should know about?
21:03 :: yorka: it's not like everyone should be a millionnaire
21:03 :: Rakel: just bought new comp so could as wel try something out
21:03 :: origon: the races are well designed, they must use the race belonging in some way?
21:03 :: keksi: yeah, the majik concept is still quite original, if the game is up and running i think it'll be no problem making it commercial
21:04 :: keksi: so go code
21:04 :: Rakel: btw, any progress on landscape test?
21:05 :: keksi: the only real competition so far is the above mentioned Horizons mmorpg, which is halfway there but not quite
21:05 :: origon: last time i checked there had not been progress on the base components for a month
21:05 :: keksi: Dawn mmorpg used to have the exact same concept as majik, but i think they died because of lack of financing
21:06 :: keksi: i often wondered if Dawn stole some of the ideas from majik-design mailinglist :P
21:07 :: origon: we need a leader! :)
21:07 :: keksi: grr
21:09 :: origon: we need to hire a motivator
21:09 :: keksi: let's hire a consulting firm
21:11 :: origon: would things work if one person was paid as project leader?
21:11 :: origon: half time or something
21:11 :: origon: we have everything but motivation
21:12 :: keksi: are you suggesting you need money? :)
21:12 :: origon: project leader, not lead designer
21:13 :: origon: tho i think i would be more motivated if i could affect things for real :)
21:14 :: darsu: origon, designate me something to do.
21:14 :: darsu: no, not lead.
21:16 :: origon: my situation in this project feel like sitting at the train station throwing flowers at the trains that stand still
21:17 :: origon: without being able to turn on the power
21:17 :: keksi: you have to do it gradually
21:17 :: origon: or we could get someone that has enough rank or respect to tell all people what to do
21:18 :: origon: i don't feel that i can affect the code part much because they are so 'merlin'-like
21:19 :: keksi: yeah that's true
21:19 :: origon: noone can demand anything from code
21:19 :: origon: currently
21:19 :: keksi: well, dazzt could
21:19 :: keksi: but the problem is dazzt is the only one doing it :P
21:19 :: yorka: I don't think demanding anything from anyone is the right thing to do here.
21:19 :: keksi: and this tringe guy
21:19 :: keksi: which is nice
21:20 :: origon: yorka, no, we could hire another 50 people to the project so that they can idle around as well
21:20 :: origon: the reason for why we have a kazillion people in majik is because noone demands anything
21:21 :: yorka: a demand always needs to have a catch
21:21 :: origon: you learn stuff
21:21 :: yorka: "If you don't do this, I'll..."
21:21 :: origon: your out of the majik team, where all the 1337 people are
21:21 :: origon: thats how planeshift works
21:21 :: keksi: how about "if you do this, we'll finally get to play this game before the year 2500"
21:22 :: yorka: I think people worry too much. Things will happen in time.
21:22 :: origon: of course you need to praise people for doing things instead of nagging on them
21:22 :: yorka: All things come to the one who waits :)
21:22 :: origon: not majik
21:23 :: yorka: titaanivolvo!
21:23 :: darsu: one thing that would motivate people would be to somehow insert them a picture of what the finished product would be like
21:24 :: origon: dazzt has said that he does what people tell him to do, that he does not really want to be lead
21:24 :: origon: so we do not really have anyone leading code
21:24 :: keksi: you're referring to the carrot testplatform? or landscapetest?
21:24 :: origon: landscapetest
21:24 :: yorka: this is true
21:24 :: origon: carrot is only namhas atm
21:24 :: origon: and me
21:24 :: yorka: coders are not leaders usually :)
21:25 :: keksi: yes
21:25 :: keksi: how about yorka for a leader then?
21:25 :: origon: yorka is too evil :P
21:25 :: keksi: do you have enough interest/time
21:25 :: origon: :)
21:25 :: keksi: yorka has authority
21:26 :: keksi: which is always nice for a leader
21:27 :: yorka: Hmm.
21:28 :: keksi: i mean i think one of the core devs should take an active position in the project
21:28 :: keksi: and namhas seems to quite preoccupied with whatever
21:35 :: keksi: we have all the elements needed to progess this thing, we have a few active designers, we have a few active coders, all that's needed is the push to make things moving
21:35 :: keksi: progress even
21:36 :: origon: darshan, your task is to discuss with keksi how the god/sage system should work
21:36 :: yorka: I'll try.
21:37 :: origon: what will be the first thing to do? a crude timeplan?
21:37 :: yorka: The first thing to do is figuring out what we have now and figuring out what we need.
21:38 :: keksi: design or code-wise?
21:38 :: yorka: code
21:38 :: Rakel: code, then design
21:38 :: origon: shall we discuss that now?
21:38 :: keksi: ok, origon still stays the design leader?
21:38 :: origon: is yorka lead code-person, and yorka+origon is the lead?
21:39 :: origon: how do you prefer it, yorka?
21:41 :: yorka: let's share, it'll be much less of a shock that way for me
21:42 :: origon: ok, so im free to bitch about code not doing anything at you?
21:42 :: origon: and you whine about design laziness
21:42 :: origon: in nicer words
21:42 :: origon: without fighting if possibly :)
21:43 :: origon: possible
21:43 :: origon: harum is listed as lead designer at webpage :)
21:43 :: yorka: yes
21:44 :: origon: shall i change that now? do we have enough votes for the election? :)
21:44 :: origon: i guess we should forum it
21:44 :: keksi: i don't think anyone will disagree :P
21:44 :: origon: nod :)
21:44 :: keksi: just change it
21:44 :: origon: lets just do it, and i'll post chat log to forums
21:44 :: origon: ok with you, yorka?
21:45 :: dazzt: Hum
21:45 :: origon: hello dazzt :)
21:46 :: origon: welcome to the revolution
21:47 :: origon: any thoughts, dazzt?
21:48 :: dazzt: The discussion is about project lead?
21:49 :: origon: nod, starting with the trains without power
21:49 :: keksi: code-lead
21:49 :: keksi: mainly
21:52 :: tringe: hi guys
21:52 :: origon: hello
21:54 :: dazzt: origon, What I mean about "not leading" is that I think I'm not good as the person deciding where this project goes, but I'm quite sure I will have opinions about the code :)
21:54 :: tringe: talking about code ...
21:54 :: tringe: I have a first version of the octree here
21:54 :: dazzt: Cool
21:55 :: tringe: Can I send it to you via dcc, as I don't have cvs access yet
21:55 :: origon: dazzt, but do you see the problem that is pointed out, that noone has any 'orders' or 'demands'?
21:55 :: dazzt: dcc is fine
21:56 :: origon: it would be interesting to hear how you see your role in the project
21:56 :: origon: currently
21:56 :: tringe: some bugchecking would be cool, before you add any files to the cvs
21:56 :: dazzt: Have you made a test for it?
21:56 :: dazzt: Ah, apparently
21:57 :: tringe: yes
21:57 :: dazzt: origon, I think that people should always commit to some deadline
21:58 :: dazzt: So tasks wouldn't be left hanging in the air for an indefinite time
21:58 :: origon: do you have any deadlines atm?
21:59 :: dazzt: (Well, having some tasks would be a start though ;))
21:59 :: keksi: hoho :)
21:59 :: dazzt: Personal?
21:59 :: origon: so one could say that you would not suffer from having exernal motivation? :)
22:00 :: origon: a lead coder in this case
22:00 :: origon: deadlines are a cheap way of motivating, but they tend to work; at least when one is paid
22:00 :: tringe: lucky me, I have chosen dazzt as my current lead coder :)
22:01 :: tringe: forgot to ask him, though ..
22:01 :: keksi: that just proves you have decent motivation
22:01 :: keksi: which is nice
22:01 :: keksi: we appreciate the help
22:01 :: dazzt: I don't mind someone kicking me around (assigning tasks etc), but I most likely have something to say when the tasks are defined :)
22:01 :: origon: nod
22:02 :: origon: are you ok with yorka as lead?
22:02 :: tringe: indeed
22:03 :: origon: has yorka fainted btw?
22:03 :: dazzt: Yes
22:04 :: origon: yes to 'ok as lead'?
22:05 :: dazzt: Yeah ;)
From: hook
Date: 2003-05-21 14:10:47
In-Reply-To: 2676
my god...i have to read that whole thing?
From: tringe
Date: 2003-05-22 01:33:39
In-Reply-To: 2678
Now that we have a new dev-leader (All hail Yorka), it's time for some action, isn't it ?
I agree with the guys on the irc log, that the main problem is the lack of organization, that we currently experience :)
Concerning that, a list containing "What we have - what we need - Who can do what" would be cool, maybe Yorka or Dazzt could do something like that for the development part .. ?
Concerning the programming, I think it would be a real boost of motivation, if someone (Yorka or Dazzt :) ) would start writing the Server base / the graphical Parts of the Client (These can be developed independently of the Server development progress).
Judging from what I've seen of the base libraries (Amon), these are in a pretty good shape, and ,although not finished, other parts of Majik can already be developed using these base libs. right ?
Looking at other mmorpg projects, I've seen some one-guy-projects, which already produce some nice results after one year, so I don't see the reason, why we shouldn't be able, to do the same, i.e. start the server and client development and then start the refining. It might not be the most elegant way of developing a game, but better than idling ..
Well, thats just my opinion; criticism welcome
