From: namhas
Date: 2002-10-16 16:12:50
Today we had an IRC discussion that you could perhaps also like to read (if you wasn't on IRC) and give your opinions.
Gxest revealed his secret wish to code a bit using LPC
gxest:
i could also run majik3 :)
namhas:
i'm still drooling for having a running majik3.
namhas:
and i actually think we still could in practice implement each and every of our ideas apart from graphics in a text-based mud. especially if it is grid-mapped.
i've got code ready for grid-mapped lpc mud if you want to toy around with that kind of stuff, but i guess it would be best to start from something else first. :)
what we can't implement is height-differences. we can implement them to some degree, but not totally. and
also in a gridmapped mud you usually always know where's north because you move by directions even though it would be possible to make you move using forward,backward and turn commands. :) but that sounds like too much hassle.
gxest:
what do you mean by gridmapped? like in adom?
namhas:
yes, but that still you could play it using telnet -- no client needed.
all that i would want would be to get our ideas up and running as a working game and having it text-based seems still so droolable alternative because you really could do that without wasting ten years for it. with only minimal lossage.
gxest:
well, just an economy simulator would do
namhas:
i don't think we would need testplatforms any more.. i think the ideas just will work.
darshan:
actually a forward-back-left-right control would be quite fun in a mud
namhas:
makes you even more lost. :)
darshan:
but it would require dynamic room descs that depend on where you came from
namhas:
the problem for such a moving in a gridmapped environment is that you have to rotate the map according to your facing.
majik3 testplatform room descs would have been dynamic enough for such a thing. and rotating directions is all easy.
darshan:
well, in a 3d environment we have to rotate something rather more difficult
gxest:
but why have a textbased majik3d when we can just focus on having the real thing
namhas:
because the real thing takes sooo long. haven't we already seen that.
gxest:
it would take even more if we divide our time and resources. are the coders doing anything now?
namhas:
nope
gxest:
why not. if designers aren't doing anything, it's origon's fault. but coders don't have organization?
Motivation and time problems
namhas:
the problem with the coding is that we haven't quite much yet decided the approach. and we don't yet know what's coming from Dreams. and i don't have net at home.
gxest:
we have now the possibility to get things rolling, everybody's just waiting for the push that makes them move. but idling diminishes morale all the time
namhas:
but how about if we all would concentrate on text-based to get a game up and running! would it not boost everyone's motivation like 100x as they can see a game that has our latest ideas always in. (while waiting for nice 3d technologies to appear)
we have been waiting all the time while we could have been coding the testplatform.
gxest:
probably a working landscape again would boost it even more. i dislike the concept of waiting for technologies. it sounds like an excuse.
darshan:
i would rather have a testplatform to torment than a crippled landscape test
namhas:
yeah. i never liked adopting taika's technologies. i would have just have everything developed by ourself on top of opengl and other standard things such as stl and no waiting for external libraries. and after all, plib was not so bad.
gxest:
waiting is the worst thing we can do. while we're waiting, everyone finds new interests and forgets about majik. we have lost several people because of waiting already. including harum, beregar, belemar.
darshan:
and why are we waiting for dreams? what's supposedly coming from there?
namhas:
naah, it's just my excuse for not investigating other open source technologies because i still want to believe we would get something nice for free. let's code testplatform! *drools*
gxest:
let's code majik3d *drools*
namhas:
okay. get us an army of coders. or four that work full time.
gxest:
we have farthon, hcjake, yorka, you, dazzt
namhas:
not enough. i can right now waste like 4 hours/week. we need to be able to get 160h/week in order to be able to get some real progress and i doubt we could maintain that with such a team.
darshan:
one coder is enough to do _something_
namhas:
darshan has the point. that's why i've been so much advocating these autoupdating systems and other independant parts that anyone could develop and the parts are not dependant on anything else. and that kind of things can develop with no schedule just whenever someone have time to use on them.
darshan:
but what will we do with them if there's no game?
namhas:
we need them when we have other things.
gxest:
the coder problem is an unsolvable dilemma, since we need _proficient_ coders, not some crappy wannabe scripters, and real coders have real jobs and no time, the wannabe scripters are young and have time
other projects, like planeshift have done it because their core devteam is devoted to the project. our devteam has been around for so long that they have lost any real enthusiasm
namhas:
that's why we need a new devteam. of those who really have want to do something. if they are newbie then they are newbie and they will learn. they surely would do some progress.
gxest:
yes, if the current core devs guide them and give them orders
namhas:
exactly. that's what i've been dreaming for long, if we just could get those wannabees from somewhere.
gxest:
well, we need to advertise
darshan:
we'll be laughed at, though =)
namhas:
Dreams had some ideas of contacting all the others and trying to collaborate somehow.
gxest:
everything can be done, it's just a matter of wanting it. if one really wants, he can divide his time between his work and coding majik
namhas:
the problem with professional coders is that after you've been doing a 10h day with haste (with no possibility to do less) you will not have energy to code anything during the evening. and the only time when you would have energy are the weekends but in order to have again such a hasty coding week you'd better do some resting. and that's why i drool for non-professional coders.
the things that you could have energy to do during evenings as professional coders would be the things that you could really _do_ with realistic time. right now we're looking up for stuff that would take years and i can't see it that we could ever achieve (if we all would not lose jobs), so why bother at all.
if we could see that there could be a chance, then our motivation for getting up would be increased and we could be wasting few hours occasionally whenever we have the energy.
gxest:
are you saying dump the project?
namhas:
i'm not saying to dump project, i'm saying what i as a professional coder feel when looking up the stuff we're aiming to achieve. with no more time or coders the thing is impossible, so why bother to even try? how to boost my motivation would to make that impossible less impossible.
one way for that would be to develop something smaller, such as the testplatform.
the other way would be to just get an army of wannabe coders.
darshan:
i think that the most sensible way to develop majik right now would be to implement as much of the basic game mechanics as possible as a text-driven system. i.e. a MUD!
at least we'd have something to play then. the interesting ideas of majik don't require 3d graphics to be implemented
gxest:
majik goes oldskool. we had a text mud, then we dumped it and started a 3d version, then we decided it's too hard and went back to mudding, though i too would be very excited to get the game working atleast in some way. in a mud if that's all we can do.
namhas:
full circle. and if we do the mud we can always make a 2D graphical client for it, if we want to get graphics people involved. through the popularity of the mud through our ideas would surely attract a lot of wannabe coders to try the challenge to do it all in full 3D. and it all would seem easier as people could first see all the ideas in practice and the fact that they really are the greatest.
gxest:
but if we go for the mud, we have to start from the assumption that nothing will be compromised. everything will be as it would in Majik3d. (except obviously things involving 3d perspective, and other impossible things)
namhas:
yes
gxest:
that means dumping basic lpc alltogether. i mean exp and such
namhas:
yes, of course.
gxest:
if we do it, we should do it all the way. get all the possible lpc coders doing it etc. i assume sirdar would very much want this too. as he was doing the samurai thing with you
namhas:
but good thing is that i already have some code and i can work all alone and get progress. :) but yes, it would be a huge boost to get everyone involved. for me the motivation is like quite high, as i can see that it is all doable even _if_ i would do it all alone.
Problems with 2D
gxest:
what about the problems that caused you to ditch 2d in the first place? i remember lack of characters was one. though that sounds like an excuse :)
namhas:
that's not problem for ditching 2d because solution for it was to develop a graphical client. and adding graphics over ascii characters is all easy. (even though you would be still limited by the char set, but you can always use two ascii chars to represent one graphics tile). and that quite much came from the fact that we wanted snow etc stuff raining down.
it is all of the way we want to present it. the underlying system of course can have any amount of different things. and then make it so that you can look at them and then get more info of them. the problem with text-based gridmap thing is however that it is a bit slow to get to know who's who on the map.
but that can be solved by making people to use "scan" command or similar to get a list of objects nearby and then just type command like "kill gxest" and the character would get to walk near gxest's location and attack and follow until attack is breaked. the gridmap would be just a "bonus". people wouldn't necessarily have to rely on it.
gxest:
well, obviously things will not be as realistic than they would in 3d.
hmm, i think we need an announcement if we do this mud thing. not necessarily a public announcement, but for the team maybe in the forums. explain why we're doing it, what exactly we're doing etc
namhas:
..and then in the process document all the game mechanics we have in to have them as a nice aid when developing a new game based on the ideas in future.
it's still been just three of us. i would want to hear comments from others before announcing anything. i'm not all sure if we really should concentrate on this and not just keep it as a separate project.
gxest:
oh yeah, i almost forgot about that :) if you explain what you did to me, to everyone else, i'm sure they will like the idea and why atleast i am in this project is not the 3d graphics, it's the concept of a roleplaying environment. and that can be achieved in lpc too
namhas:
after the concept is up the concept in itself could attract wannabe people to head for the full 3D, gather their own team etc. i think this kind of thing would be the best way to advertise and get the coders and graphic artists.
gxest:
damn i'm excited if we get majik online with most of the current ideas. more excited than i've been in ages
namhas:
and you could participate in the actual development too. :)
Separate or not?
yorkaturr:
I'd say if some of us are so intent to work on a mud, then make it a separate project
namhas:
yes, it would be stupid to discard the 3D project as it still _could_ gain some progress.
yorkaturr:
of course it could, I'd say things don't look any darker now than during our Taika days
namhas:
i think the things look brighter now. but certainly not bright enough to get me motivated. i even think that the things are aimed to get more brighter in near future, but i think there will be no harm in developing the actual concept while waiting for things to get brighter.
gxest:
and it would also give some people who can't really participate in the actual majik3d coding something to do. not even mentioning that we don't have to wait 10 more years before we can roleplay in the majik world
namhas:
and they could also learn skills adequate enough for participating in majik3d development later on.
Why was previous testplatform discountinued?
namhas:
the testplatform was aimed low and i got what i wanted from it. the testplatform was to test dynamic room descriptions with no gridmaps, along with the whole game system, which then arrived to problems of why you need to own any land in any case and if there is no need for having land then there is no need to conquer any land either. but with gridmap i think it comes more naturally, as you have some real distances. you just can't have your field just anywhere. and your field sure will take some space.